Even though I titled this an argument, lets keep this civil please. I am just looking for discussion and opinions. I am intrigued with the idea of setting up a long range rifle, and am considering a 6.5 creedmoor. So in thinking about the glass I know most people use turrets on their scopes which I agree are very accurate if setup correctly. So here's the rub, It seems to take an inordinate amount of time to set it once the target is ranged, and I wonder if it is worth it? I am a big fan of the BDC reticle, but I take great care in setting the power to match the loads ballistics. So based on the bullet and MV I typically set my BDC to 7X and do not change it. This puts me dead-on @ 200 yards 1st circle is 300 then 400, then 500.

The beauty of this approach is that it gives you fast target acquisition. I was on an Oryx hunt once on White Sands and had an Oryx leaving the county in a hurry, I had hit it hard "but a little back" at 200 and it did not even slow it down. As it was getting out of harms way my bud was calling out the range and all I had to do was move up the the first circle and out in front and made the best shot of my life, and rolled it at slightly over 300.

The same friend guides elk hunters and he said in the last few years since turrets are more prevalent he has had more missed opportunities on elk because the hunter was to busy adjusting his turrets and measuring the wind. Once on an elk at just 75 yards.

So what say the THF??? Just looking for opinions on the utility of using turrets and not what scope to buy. If I go that direction I already know what scope I will be using.

Thanks,

Personally I like them. If you're zeroed at 200 (like I am) there are no adjustments out to 250 or 300. After that you should have all the time in the world to plan your shot. Obviously the guides most recent example had no idea what he was doing and didn't know his gun. JMO.

Buy a Scope with mil turrets and a mil/mil reticle and know your dope and then you won't have to dial the scope just use the reticle. Its really not that hard once you memorize your holds which just takes a little practice and then you get the best of both worlds. When you have time or are shooting for fun dial when in a pinch use the reticle.

Since I have my corrections memorized on more than one rifle (or the corrections affixed to the rear scope cap, or on the turret itself) it takes me about one extra second to dial what I need from a 100 yard zero.

In the event that I don't have time, which happened last week on a coyote, I will hold elevation with the reticle. These are the same exact numbers, in Mils. So if I need to hit that coyote at 300 yards I can dial to 1.0 on the turret, or I can not touch the turret and hold over, until vitals or head are lined up with the first 1.0 Mil hash, diamond, or dot, depending on the scope. The end result is the same.

Two ways to skin the cat there.

Making holds can be very precise, after quite a bit of practice. Dialing allows me to stay on my windage line, so that I can make the proper left to right correction, which I prefer.

When I have customers out, I show them how we get an estimated set of elevation corrections, based on caliber, BC, MV, and bullet weight. Then we dial those corrections all the way out to 800 yards. I write down the new DOPE for the rifle/ scope/ ammo. Then I have them start all over back at 200 yards, resetting their zero for 100 yards. Then they make holds on everything to 800 yards. I tell them that they need to know how, in the event of speed being important.

That is how one can extract everything possible from a turreted scope, with a matching reticle.

Change location on the planet, the air density changes. Major temperature change, the air density changes. The ballistic calculator will adjust corrections based on the air you are shooting in now. Then you can dial, or hold, those new corrections. Of course, most cartridges don't vary a whole lot 400 yards, and less.

I think that like everything else, they are obviously a great tool for those that take the time to master them. Many do and many don't. My Yukon sheep outfitter just sent his information letter/gear list for the upcoming hunts this year. When it came to rifles/calibers, etc. - front and center was a prohibition of dialing to make the shot. If you bring a turreted scope, he insists it will be set at 200 yard zero and taped there.

He knows this will irritate many, but unfortunately has had so many bad experiences with hunters dialing and missing/wounding game, he simply does not allow their use since he can't know the competent from the incompetent.

and how does he know they didn't dial
Correctly and just made a bad shot?

Personally I'd never hunt with someone that tells me what I can and cannot hunt with

He knows what he knows from almost 30 years of guiding hunters for sheep, moose, and grizzly. Plus the experiences of his guides added in.

Not going with him would be your prerogative. If you wanted to hunt sheep in the Yukon, you might reconsider if you did your homework.

Doesn't bother me - I don't dial. I posted to provide objective evidence of something I have also seen: folks trying to use equipment to make up for their own deficiencies. Not all, but many.

I dial sometimes and sometimes I don't doesn't bother me what other people do but what does bother me is when someone says I can't do what I want when it's completely legal. I'm sure there have been just as many botched shots on guided hunts from non dialers prob more since dialing has taken off only in recent years.

My argument is regardless of the equipment the user has to make a good shot

NP if you don't dial then do you use a reticle of some flavor? BDC, Mil_Dot? When talking Yukon sheep the ranges are certainly going to be long.

I use a Mil/Mil FFP scope and 90% of the time when I'm hunting I don't dial. I am more comfortable holding with Mil marks than BDC marks.

I wish someone would make a Mil/Mil FFP scope with low profile capped turrets, that's my dream hunting scope.

He'd never get my business.

His job is to get a hunter on sheep. My job would be to make the shot as I see fit.

I'm just the messenger. Just keep in mind he is in a business where he has to make the best calls to prevent sheep and other animals from being wounded and grizzlies from being wounded and killing people as he sees fit - based on his experiences guiding hunters for a long time. His job is much more than you glibly state. It is also to protect the resource and protect his clients' very lives. Hunting that country and those animals is serious business. He is not in the business of pissing potential clients off for the fun of it. He doesn't have the luxury of knowing you are what you say you are or are not what you say you are when it comes to shooting skills. He has obviously had a lot of poor experiences with wannabes and has reacted accordingly.

Simple as that. Get indignant if you want. He understands some will be. He accepts that. You might be surprised at how many in his line of work feel the same way. It's not personal.

I saw Shockey himself miss a Kamchatka Snow sheep on the 28th day of hunting them because he misdialed his turret. To his credit, he owned it. Sometimes guys are handicapped by dialing. It happens.

All I say is, if you use turrets (or any other equipment), master them. Otherwise, they don't help - and can hinder. I don't think that should be too controversial.

I use a duplex reticle and won't take a shot over 400. Period. I know, because I have been there and tempted. Had a desert ram at 500 and declined the shot. An hour later I killed him with one shot at 220. My first Yukon ram was taken with one shot at 222. I look to get within my range. I don't take chances outside my comfort zone.

Sighted in 3" high, I can basically just put the crosshairs on the animal and kill it out to 300. MPBR is about 280. (Maybe hold slightly low at 100-175 or so if I'm thinking precisely, if not it's no big deal). At 400 simply put a little daylight over his back. Get steady, breathe, squeeze the trigger. Simple.

I don't go in with a mindset ranges are going to be long. Over history, average shots at sheep by experienced sheep hunters will be 200 or so and under. The thought that all shots at sheep are long range is simply a myth. They are very stalkable animals if one knows how to do so. They also live in country that more often than not lends itself to executing a stalk on them.

That said, it is an endeavor where being proficient beyond 400 can certainly be a plus because those type shots can present themselves. But the best and most experienced sheep hunters will only take such a shot if: 1)they are proficient with them and 2)there's no way to get closer. Most of the time, you can get closer.

Your friend's guiding experiences/stories sound similar to those posted above. Hunters not familiar/proficient with them can be hindered by them. Dialing and checking wind for a 75 yard shot defies polite comment. Suffice it to say anyone not subject to paralysis by analysis because of equipment he didn't understand the purpose for would have simply put the crosshairs in the proper place and killed him an elk. In that particular case, he would have been better off having a 50 year old 4x - or even open sights.

I'm very much like you Nogalus. I wouldn't take a shot over 400 yards and my longest has been around 330. I don't own a scope with turrets, anything mil, and all my reticles are duplex or German #4. According to friends and family I'm a decent shot but I don't feel competent enough to shoot past my self-imposed limit.

I'm also not in any way denigrating the guys that dial and/or use reticles with holdover points.

Me neither. It's just not for me. That ram looked as if he were in another world to me at 500. The next hour sneaking in on him that led to the shot was more exciting than I can describe. I like to hunt animals, not just shoot them.

If you can hit what you shoot at every time out to 400, you are a better shot than 95% of the folks carrying a rifle.

I have a turreted FFP scope on my favorite rifle. It replaced a BDC type scope. I can get along just fine with either type though I will admit that I have really gotten fond of the turrets. It's sighted in at 100, but if I want to change to having it sighted in at 200, just make a few clicks with the turret. Can't beat that. And now I don't have to remember to crank an sfp scope to max power in order to use the BDC lines.

Better make sure that it hits where you think it does at distance when you get to cranking the turret.

And, way back when, I used to guide hunters on two south Texas ranches. Some of those guys I had on my jeep were terrible shots or they hadn't checked the sights since last season. It was really frustrating to me. Often, i'd just hand them my rifle. "Here, use this"! Finally, I took to checking out their boots and rifles. New boots and new rifle - I'd push them over to somebody else's jeep. Old scuffed boots and a worn 25-06 and I'd say "here, get on my jeep. Sit up front".

Lol every guide/outfitter I've ever talked to says the same thing.

NP,

Is he a reasonable enough person, that if I showed up with the 5-20 SS scope I've been using hard for 5 years with scratches all over it, anodizing missing on all the turrets, that he could see that I shoot enough that I'll decide how I do it? Just curious. Not unlike 603Country seeing the guy with worn boots and a scratched up rifle.

I realize the lions share of clients he sees don't fit in that mold.

Practice. Practice. Practice.

Weather someone is dialing turrets or using MPBR the same can be said, if you do not prepare properly you could miss the shot. When I was in Wyoming my buddy was shooting at an Antelop at 325. He uses MPBR and is sighted high at 200 yards. He took am at the antelop, shot, and he hit low leg breaking the leg. We drove after the thing chasing it, finally got another shot at 375. He shot 4 time and missed all 4 shots. We drove closer, got another shot at 250, he shot and hit it in the belly. Antelop runs towards the woods, we chase him, finally get a shot at under 100 yards, my buddy shoots and kills him.

I'm not a fan of MPBR because I don't know where my bullet is hitting. I'm also not a fan of Kentucky Windage on a duplex scope again because I don't know where the bullet is hitting. If someone thought I was going to miss just because I have turrets I think they are crazy. A more appropriate thing would be to ask if I've practiced with the setup and how far out am I comfortable shooting. He should ask every shooter that question.

JG my honest guess is that you and he would discuss it, he would get comfortable with your proficiency based on y'all's discussion, and it would be fine. I will say that, like most any experienced outfitter I have met, he would almost certainly be clear in explaining that his goal is to get 300 yards or under if at all possible. He would gauge your reactions to what he was saying, you would gauge his reactions to what you were saying - and almost certainly you would both get on the same page. Or not.

Each hunt is different. Heck, each animal is different. For example, I have not met an outfitter yet that wanted anyone taking a long range shot on a grizzly, because they: 1)want to 1000% sure on placement and 2)want to have good, quick follow ups if needed.

Part of choosing the right outfitter (especially for a hunt like that) is good communication before booking.

That makes me cringe.

Well, I'm sorry.

I'll say this in response:

I've hunted 40 plus years and taken elk, bear, moose, sheep, pronghorn, more WTs than I can count, etc., etc. all over North America. All but a couple of the WTs have been one shot kills. A couple of misses - both on WTs.

There's a lot more to hunting than just shooting proficiency. Ever had a desert sheep tag that was a 1:8000 draw and is once in a lifetime and have to make the shot? A Stone sheep in your scope? A moose? A bear?

You can guess about whether: 1)you will do all the things right to give yourself the opportunity and 2)whether you will make the shot. But, until you do, that's all it is: a guess.

So, cringe all you want. I know what my results have been. They are on the wall.

For a walking around hunting rifle where animal might appear suddenly at 21 yards or 300 yards I prefer no turrets. My experince with still hunting has been 99% of time it is a quick affair where seconds count and turrets are of 0 value. Fixed position or open country dial away. Regardless of the choice practice not equipment makes the hunter.