If it were possible to drop a bullet from the same height as the muzzle of a rifle at the same instant a fired bullet leaves the rifle, both bullets would hit the ground at the same time. This assumes the rifle barrel is parallel to the ground.

Agree with FiremanJG the Ballistic Basics in the graff tis some what misleading...
the scope sits above the barrel & is actualy factory set at a pre deturmaned distance down range were it first meets the crosshairs in the scope, giving the illiouson that bullet rises up like in pic shown in the ballistic test, then again when the path of bullet intersects the second time.. tis no arch in bullet my humble apologies for inproper use of words, if some be confused... as stated, me grammer not the best, i got D-... same with archery, sight pins set above arrow rest & noch... tis what ol timmers call shooting threw the pipe...

Is she going to be aiming for the left or right eye on this deer.

it took me years to explain the concept to my FIL ... the bullet starts to drop from line of bore as soon as it leaves the end of the barrel, bullet does not rise from line of bore ... line of sight and line of bore are not the same (at least shouldn't be if you want to zero down range). With the line of sight being parallel to the ground, the line of bore would be inclined upward causing the line of bore and line of sight to intersect down range ... the path of the bullet starts out following the line of bore, but immediately starts to drop as it exits the end of the barrel due to gravity ... the path of the bullet should cross the line of sight twice, once as it crosses with the upward trajectory due to angle of line of bore versus line of sight and once as it drops crossing back across the line of sight, an arc. The second time it crosses the line of sight is typically referred to as your zero.

I have my 25-06 sighted in 1.5 high at 100 using Federal Premium 117 gr Sierra Gameking BTSP, 3030 fps at muzzle. This setup is +.5 @ 50, +1.5 @ 100, +1.3 @150, 0 @ 200, -2.6@250, -6.6 @ 300 ... very easy shooting 0-~225 ... easiest to explain think of anywhere from 0 to 225 yards, you would be hitting a target the diameter of a coke can roughly by aiming at the center of the can thru that entire range.

1" high at 100 yds. is a pretty tested and proven thing for most rifles..

That's right for a 200 yard zero, that's wrong, with a 100 yard zero. Bullet path crosses the line of sight ONE TIME, and that is at the zero distance, 100 yards.

I've shot MOA from 7 yards (dial up like you're dialing for 875 yards) all the way to 1000 yards. The bullet is below the line of sight at every single point along its' path except for the 100 yard mark.

I think we are all tossing around different terms and trying to make it all seem the same.

Yes, gravity affects all bullets as soon as they leave the muzzle. That is simple physics.
Yes, a scoped weapon has offset such that we don't actually shoot at muzzle height when looking through the scope.
Yes, a scoped weapon bullet rises when compared to muzzle height in most hunting applications.
Yes, when shooting at varying distances there will be times when you are shooting above or below muzzle height.

If anyone has issue with any of these statements, please correct me. I believe I am correct but could be off (it has been known to happen). I also believe many of these comments have been talking about different things but made to seem the same.

true for short distance zero, bullet crosses line of sight once. I stand corrected on that! good catch!

Texas buckeye, that is why I was trying to use common terms ...

line of sight is a straight line as viewed thru the scope (or open sights)
line of bore is a straight line as view thru the barrel
trajectory of bullet is an arc due to gravity where projectile starts dropping as soon as it leave muzzle, this is why there is an upward angle for the line of bore compared to line of sight.

you would not believe how many in-depth arguments I had with my FIL over a number of years about the bullet "rising" ... which is an inaccurate statement the way he was using it ... finally sunk in that the upward angle of the line of bore was causing the bullet to appear to rise.

PMK, I agree, and I am just trying to clarify my understanding of this as well. All these different terms and people disagreeing and agreeing with certain terms has me confused as to what everyone is saying.

I made a statement (implying the arc of bullet trajectory on a scoped weapon as most of us hunt) in that not all bullets drop immediately once leaving the muzzle, but left out "due to the arc of bullet trajectory" (that was my fault and I made the statement late at night and wasn't thinking 100% straight). I got jumped and people started using gravity, line of sight, line of muzzle, etc...especially in long range shooting, the bullet is on an upward path as the bore is aimed upward to account for the drop that will ensue. Thus, the bullet rises higher than the muzzle in that situation. Am I wrong? Not nit picking, and certainly not trying to pick on you PMK...but I was told this was wrong by someone who knows a lot more about shooting than I do. I thought it was a semantics issue but by strict definitions of muzzle height/elevation and bullet height/elevation, the bullet will go higher than the muzzle on more than a rare shot due to line of bore being angled upward some...correct?

OK, correct me if I am wrong here, as I am making some assunmptions that may not be true:
Assumed the rifle is scoped and the scope is mounted on a regular set of rails.
Assume the rails are parallel to the rifle bore (this assumption may not be correct??)
Assume the rifle is sighted in at 100 yards, and the bullet meets the target and hits bull at 100 yards while only crossing the line of sight one time as you mention above. Based on all the assumptions above (and assuming they are correct, that's the biggee, again may not be the case), this bullet would have a trajectory of flight that means in essence the bullet is gaining inches of altitude/height/elevation compared to the muzzle/bore based on the scope height, and if there was no target present at 100 yards would continue to elevate above said bore until a point in the arc where it max'd out and then began to decrease in elevation relative to bore and if allowed to continue forward would eventually be at bore elevation and then continue doward until it hit ground, all of this depending on bullet/powder/etc.

No, the bullet will not ever rise above the line of bore, above the line of sight yes, but not the line of bore. We may be getting back into semantics again since you used the term "higher than the muzzle" and to answer that, yes it will but that is due to the upward angle of the line of bore.

If you think about it, forget the scope, open sights, line of sight for a minute ... just think of the line of bore. If the line of bore is held exactly level on level ground, as soon as the weapon is fired, the projectile (bullet) moves down the line of bore to the end of the muzzle. As soon as the projectile leaves the muzzle, gravity starts pulling it towards earth or in other words, the bullet immediately starts to drop... never does the bullet "rise" above the line of bore. Make sense?

Okay, let’s put the scope or open sights back into play. This forms the line of sight which is a perfectly straight line. The line of site is some distance above the line of bore at the muzzle, typically 1.5 inches for most normal 1 inch tube with 40mm objective scopes with normal height mounts. The angle between the line of sight and the line of bore is very slight but still an angle with the line of bore being upward compared to the line of site. Let’s keep it simple as FiremanJG pointed out with the 100 yard zero where the bullet basically comes up to the line of site without crossing it and I will use the same 25-06 since I have the ballistics handy on the load I use in mine as mentioned in my first post (Federal Premium, 117 gr, Sierra Gameking BTSP, 3030 fps, 1000 feet above sea level, 50 degrees F).

The line of sight set at 100 yards for zero, the angle of the line of bore is upward enough to where the trajectory of the bullet will intersect the line of sight at 100 yards which is what we will be zeroing the rifle for. Below are 10 yard increments out to 200 yards and although it appears the bullet is "rising" it actually following the line of bore minus the gravitational pull downward based on several factors including bullet weight, velocity, bullet coefficient, etc. causing an parabolic path or commonly referred to as an arc.

0 -1.5
10 -1.2
20 -.9
30 -.6
40 -.4
50 -.2
60 -.1
70 0
80 0
90 0
100 0
110 -.1
120 -.2
130 -.4
140 -.6
150 -.9
160 -1.2
170 -1.6
180 -2.0
190 -2.4
200 -3.0

the first image shows an exaggerated angle for illustration purposes and illustrates the rifle showing line of sight and line of bore angle differences:


the next image shows an exaggerated angle for illustration purposes and illustrates the rifle showing the line of sight and the trajectory of the projectile (in this case the zero point has projectile cross line of sight twice, in my example above, the blue line merely comes up to tangent to the line of sight at 70, 80, 90 and 100 yards before dropping below the line of sight instead of crossing it)


and if you want to dive deeper into the mathematics formulations (started making my head hurt in short order after a 12 hour day behind a computer screen) you can look at this LINK

PMK, the added "line of" to muzzle or bore makes all the difference. Maybe that is implied when discussing these things? I don't know as I don't talk technical gun/shooting stuff with many folks and my BIL's and brothers I talk shooting stuff with are all very non-technical jargon type people.

Having said all that, I totally agree with what you said and posted up above. Line of bore. the bullet doesn't rise above, can't, as bullets don't have flying characteristics other than being pushed through space really fast by the gas (maybe not the best word here but products of gunpowder combustion is more technical?) they are pushed out of the barrel with. However, as your diagrams show, the bullet does rise relative to the actual muzzle itself....

Again, not trying to be super technical nor ignorant, and I apologize if I am coming off as both. I am simply trying to clear up these concepts for any newbies or Misinformed people out there, maybe it is me who is misinformed about what terms usually mean and what they don't, but when I hear bore or muzzle I do not automatically think "line of bore".

As said, I think we are all talking out of the same hymnal, but using different words to describe the same concepts and making it all confusing about what is right and wrong.

So, should he sight in at 100, 200, or 140?

140
that's the yardage she'll be shooting deer at.
that's what counts

With a 25-06 on deer, any of the above mentioned zeros would work perfectly fine.

As pappy once said: Tis all about the english, i learned Kentucky english using cap & ball iron sights ... Ya can put all de fancy words any ways ya wants it still the same...

Still talking 100 yard zero here.

Bullet, and muzzle are both headed somewhat skyward, because you have the scope set to make you do so, while the scope is looking in a straight line to the target. Immediately after the 100 yard zero mark, the bullet is lower than it was at 100 yards, and even lower than the line of sight of the scope.

Carry that to 200 yards, and you'd have a .4 Mil correction in the scope (2.88") above the target at the target, but the bullet will not hit that much lower. Now we get into maximum ordinante. The Max distance the bullet had to rise to compensate for the fall, and it is significantly less than the point of aim.

Take it out to 500 yards so it's easier to understand. My 6.5 Creedmoor needs 2.6 Mil (46.8") above the target at the target, that's my hold over. But the bullet's Max ordinate is about 12". It only rose 12" higher than a straight line from the muzzle to the target.

The last two paragraphs are extra credit.

Fireman, I think we are saying the same thing there....aren't we?

I'm dead on at 100 yards. I can pick the hair I want to hit with my 25-06...flat and fast with a bull barrel. Most of my shots are around 87-90 yards. I'd go with the .59" high. Good luck to your wife.

No. Read your last post. You said bullet continues to rise after the zeroing distance. That is incorrect.

getting a lot of drama... Zero at 130 yrds, & don't over think it... As daulongranch said = Good luck to your wife ... Think the little lady will do just fine, Best wishes to her, & injoy the time spent...

personally with the 25-06, 1.5 high at 100 give you dead on at ~200 yards (at least with the factory ammo I shoot)... anywhere from the muzzle out to ~225 yards the bullet is within a 3.00 inch diameter bull which should be fine for "normal" hunting and "normal" shooters minus high neck & head shots. IMO.

I see where u are coming from now...That excerpt you picked out from my post was referring specifically to the 100 yard zero where the bullet only passes once through the line of sight (at the target 100 yards away)...in this specific situation the bullet's arc-like trajectory would need to be maximally 1.5-1.75in (or whatever the scope height is) and the zero would be right at that maximal arc height. For larger calibers and heavier bullets, I would think the arc is taller and would create a situation where the bullet would hit the 100 yard target on upward movement of the arc and continue to elevate if allowed to pass through the 100 yard zero (or perhaps there is no way to even have some of the heavier bigger bullets create such an arc?). Agree, there are probably plenty of small caliber bullets that have smaller arc heights to coincide with a 100 yard zero where the bullet only passes through line of sight once. Again, I may be wrong, but talking specifically here about the 100 yard zero where bullet passes through line of sight once.

^^And I wasn't trying to say I was wrong only specifically about this one topic, I am wrong about a lot of things and that's why I am trying to clarify...

I read the last post again and it made me sound very self righteous and indignant about being wrong about one specific thing...Lord knows I am wrong a lot more!