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 Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269151
04/21/16 01:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density?
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Aim Small]
#6269155
04/21/16 01:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
I understand statistics and epidemiology pretty good.
I know I lost 80 to 90% of my deer in val verde co to anthrax back in 2000 (just like everybody in a 4 county area did). I know I lost a lot of deer in in another area to EHD in 2012.
You know how many tpwd schmucks were concerned about the loss of 80-90% of deer populations in vast areas of Texas?? 0.00%.
Your quote below is pretty good evidence. You not only don't know that our deer aren't resistant to EHD, you don't care.
"As to EHD and Anthrax, I don't really get the argument. Anthrax is confined locally due to environmental conditions. EHD burns itself out because it kills so fast and the population can locally rebound. (It's less of a problem in Texas since our native deer are highly resistant)"
Tell ya what aim small, when CWD kills 1% of what EHD and anthrax kill in Texas, come back and tell me the sky is falling. AFTER you've proven you really are concerned about WTD pathogens by expressing concern over the real killers of WTD.
"ABSTRACT: Differences in innate disease resistance at the sub-species level have major implications for wildlife management. Two subspecies of white-tailed deer, Odocoileus virginianus borealis and O. virginianus texanus were infected with epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) viruses. These viruses are highly virulent pathogens of white-tailed deer and are endemic within the range of O. virginianus texanus but not within the range of O. virginianus borealis. Two experimental infections were performed. Five O. virginianus texanus fawns and five O. virginianus borealis fawns were infected with 107.1 median tissue culture infective doses (TCID50) of EHD virus, serotype 1 and five of each subspecies were infected with 107.1 TCID50 of EHD virus, serotype 2. Infections with both EHD virus serotypes caused severe clinical disease and
mortality in O. virginianus borealis fawns, whereas disease was mild or nondetectable in O.
virginianus texanus fawns. Virus titers and humoral immune response were similar in both subspecies suggesting that differences in innate disease resistance explain the differences seen in clinical disease severity. In white-tailed deer, innate disease resistance may vary at the subspecies level. Should this phenomenon occur in other species, these findings have major implications for managing wildlife populations, both endangered and non-endangered, using tools such as translocation and captive propagation." http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-38.4.713As to the 1% comment: Why worry about heart disease, cancer's a lot worse. We have lived with Anthrax for years. We know what the anthrax zone is, and as a result the recreational value of that land is depressed when compared to areas outside. EHD is not a persistent disease. It flares, deer die and then the population rebounds over time. CWD isn't like either one of those diseases, it is a persistent creeping disease that's 100% fatal over time. It's an apples and oranges comparison. Incorrect we are finding some elk are resistant to CWD. Which means WT's and Mulies will have the same ability. Was it just over hunting and screw worms that caused massive relocation efforts in the 20's........... It's 100% fatal once contracted. Some genotypes seem to be more resistant, yes, but this doesn't do wild herds any good on a human timeframe. We shall see. How do you reduce a population of 20k animal to 4K in less then 15 years?
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6269198
04/21/16 01:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density? I never once said all HFs = breeders. I do say breeders = high densities. Which does take HF. Only one just wishing to argue for the sake of either arguing or deflection can deny that breeding operations create artificial deer densities on a scale not seen before breeding operations came along.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269200
04/21/16 01:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
The question still on the table is: is this an additional risk to our deer herds or not?
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Aim Small]
#6269202
04/21/16 01:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192 |
I understand statistics and epidemiology pretty good.
I know I lost 80 to 90% of my deer in val verde co to anthrax back in 2000 (just like everybody in a 4 county area did). I know I lost a lot of deer in in another area to EHD in 2012.
You know how many tpwd schmucks were concerned about the loss of 80-90% of deer populations in vast areas of Texas?? 0.00%.
Your quote below is pretty good evidence. You not only don't know that our deer aren't resistant to EHD, you don't care.
"As to EHD and Anthrax, I don't really get the argument. Anthrax is confined locally due to environmental conditions. EHD burns itself out because it kills so fast and the population can locally rebound. (It's less of a problem in Texas since our native deer are highly resistant)"
Tell ya what aim small, when CWD kills 1% of what EHD and anthrax kill in Texas, come back and tell me the sky is falling. AFTER you've proven you really are concerned about WTD pathogens by expressing concern over the real killers of WTD.
"ABSTRACT: Differences in innate disease resistance at the sub-species level have major implications for wildlife management. Two subspecies of white-tailed deer, Odocoileus virginianus borealis and O. virginianus texanus were infected with epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) viruses. These viruses are highly virulent pathogens of white-tailed deer and are endemic within the range of O. virginianus texanus but not within the range of O. virginianus borealis. Two experimental infections were performed. Five O. virginianus texanus fawns and five O. virginianus borealis fawns were infected with 107.1 median tissue culture infective doses (TCID50) of EHD virus, serotype 1 and five of each subspecies were infected with 107.1 TCID50 of EHD virus, serotype 2. Infections with both EHD virus serotypes caused severe clinical disease and
mortality in O. virginianus borealis fawns, whereas disease was mild or nondetectable in O.
virginianus texanus fawns. Virus titers and humoral immune response were similar in both subspecies suggesting that differences in innate disease resistance explain the differences seen in clinical disease severity. In white-tailed deer, innate disease resistance may vary at the subspecies level. Should this phenomenon occur in other species, these findings have major implications for managing wildlife populations, both endangered and non-endangered, using tools such as translocation and captive propagation." http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-38.4.713As to the 1% comment: Why worry about heart disease, cancer's a lot worse. We have lived with Anthrax for years. We know what the anthrax zone is, and as a result the recreational value of that land is depressed when compared to areas outside. EHD is not a persistent disease. It flares, deer die and then the population rebounds over time. CWD isn't like either one of those diseases, it is a persistent creeping disease that's 100% fatal over time. It's an apples and oranges comparison. No, it's more like apples and atom bombs. Anthrax and EHD kill hundreds of thousands of Texas deer. CWD is a slow acting hard to transmit pathogen. No comparison at ALL to the effect of virulent pathogens like EHD and anthrax. Yet, you are wadded up over something that MIGHT kill a few thousand over 6 or 7 decades. Wonder why that is?? 
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: therancher]
#6269208
04/21/16 01:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 53
Aim Small
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 53 |
I understand statistics and epidemiology pretty good.
I know I lost 80 to 90% of my deer in val verde co to anthrax back in 2000 (just like everybody in a 4 county area did). I know I lost a lot of deer in in another area to EHD in 2012.
You know how many tpwd schmucks were concerned about the loss of 80-90% of deer populations in vast areas of Texas?? 0.00%.
Your quote below is pretty good evidence. You not only don't know that our deer aren't resistant to EHD, you don't care.
"As to EHD and Anthrax, I don't really get the argument. Anthrax is confined locally due to environmental conditions. EHD burns itself out because it kills so fast and the population can locally rebound. (It's less of a problem in Texas since our native deer are highly resistant)"
Tell ya what aim small, when CWD kills 1% of what EHD and anthrax kill in Texas, come back and tell me the sky is falling. AFTER you've proven you really are concerned about WTD pathogens by expressing concern over the real killers of WTD.
"ABSTRACT: Differences in innate disease resistance at the sub-species level have major implications for wildlife management. Two subspecies of white-tailed deer, Odocoileus virginianus borealis and O. virginianus texanus were infected with epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) viruses. These viruses are highly virulent pathogens of white-tailed deer and are endemic within the range of O. virginianus texanus but not within the range of O. virginianus borealis. Two experimental infections were performed. Five O. virginianus texanus fawns and five O. virginianus borealis fawns were infected with 107.1 median tissue culture infective doses (TCID50) of EHD virus, serotype 1 and five of each subspecies were infected with 107.1 TCID50 of EHD virus, serotype 2. Infections with both EHD virus serotypes caused severe clinical disease and
mortality in O. virginianus borealis fawns, whereas disease was mild or nondetectable in O.
virginianus texanus fawns. Virus titers and humoral immune response were similar in both subspecies suggesting that differences in innate disease resistance explain the differences seen in clinical disease severity. In white-tailed deer, innate disease resistance may vary at the subspecies level. Should this phenomenon occur in other species, these findings have major implications for managing wildlife populations, both endangered and non-endangered, using tools such as translocation and captive propagation." http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-38.4.713As to the 1% comment: Why worry about heart disease, cancer's a lot worse. We have lived with Anthrax for years. We know what the anthrax zone is, and as a result the recreational value of that land is depressed when compared to areas outside. EHD is not a persistent disease. It flares, deer die and then the population rebounds over time. CWD isn't like either one of those diseases, it is a persistent creeping disease that's 100% fatal over time. It's an apples and oranges comparison. No, it's more like apples and atom bombs. Anthrax and EHD kill hundreds of thousands of Texas deer. CWD is a slow acting hard to transmit pathogen. No comparison at ALL to the effect of virulent pathogens like EHD and anthrax. Yet, you are wadded up over something that MIGHT kill a few thousand over 6 or 7 decades. Wonder why that is?? What exactly are you accusing me of?
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Aim Small]
#6269229
04/21/16 02:16 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192 |
I understand statistics and epidemiology pretty good.
I know I lost 80 to 90% of my deer in val verde co to anthrax back in 2000 (just like everybody in a 4 county area did). I know I lost a lot of deer in in another area to EHD in 2012.
You know how many tpwd schmucks were concerned about the loss of 80-90% of deer populations in vast areas of Texas?? 0.00%.
Your quote below is pretty good evidence. You not only don't know that our deer aren't resistant to EHD, you don't care.
"As to EHD and Anthrax, I don't really get the argument. Anthrax is confined locally due to environmental conditions. EHD burns itself out because it kills so fast and the population can locally rebound. (It's less of a problem in Texas since our native deer are highly resistant)"
Tell ya what aim small, when CWD kills 1% of what EHD and anthrax kill in Texas, come back and tell me the sky is falling. AFTER you've proven you really are concerned about WTD pathogens by expressing concern over the real killers of WTD.
"ABSTRACT: Differences in innate disease resistance at the sub-species level have major implications for wildlife management. Two subspecies of white-tailed deer, Odocoileus virginianus borealis and O. virginianus texanus were infected with epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) viruses. These viruses are highly virulent pathogens of white-tailed deer and are endemic within the range of O. virginianus texanus but not within the range of O. virginianus borealis. Two experimental infections were performed. Five O. virginianus texanus fawns and five O. virginianus borealis fawns were infected with 107.1 median tissue culture infective doses (TCID50) of EHD virus, serotype 1 and five of each subspecies were infected with 107.1 TCID50 of EHD virus, serotype 2. Infections with both EHD virus serotypes caused severe clinical disease and
mortality in O. virginianus borealis fawns, whereas disease was mild or nondetectable in O.
virginianus texanus fawns. Virus titers and humoral immune response were similar in both subspecies suggesting that differences in innate disease resistance explain the differences seen in clinical disease severity. In white-tailed deer, innate disease resistance may vary at the subspecies level. Should this phenomenon occur in other species, these findings have major implications for managing wildlife populations, both endangered and non-endangered, using tools such as translocation and captive propagation." http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-38.4.713As to the 1% comment: Why worry about heart disease, cancer's a lot worse. We have lived with Anthrax for years. We know what the anthrax zone is, and as a result the recreational value of that land is depressed when compared to areas outside. EHD is not a persistent disease. It flares, deer die and then the population rebounds over time. CWD isn't like either one of those diseases, it is a persistent creeping disease that's 100% fatal over time. It's an apples and oranges comparison. No, it's more like apples and atom bombs. Anthrax and EHD kill hundreds of thousands of Texas deer. CWD is a slow acting hard to transmit pathogen. No comparison at ALL to the effect of virulent pathogens like EHD and anthrax. Yet, you are wadded up over something that MIGHT kill a few thousand over 6 or 7 decades. Wonder why that is?? What exactly are you accusing me of? Hyping a passive pathogen that has proven over decades to be inconsequential to cervid populations, while glossing over two virulent pathogens that decimate populations to the tune of 80 to 90% in a matter of weeks. It's really not that difficult.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269234
04/21/16 02:21 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,023
don k
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,023 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density? I never once said all HFs = breeders. I do say breeders = high densities. Which does take HF. Only one just wishing to argue for the sake of either arguing or deflection can deny that breeding operations create artificial deer densities on a scale not seen before breeding operations came along. Have you ever been to the Kerr Wildlife owned and run by the TPWS? Have you ever seen the amount of deer they have confined to a pen? Have you ever heard of a Deer there diagnosed with CWD? I wonder why that is?
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: therancher]
#6269238
04/21/16 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 53
Aim Small
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 53 |
You can't get over that straw man argument, and I've explained my point well enough on this thread for everyone else to decide for themselves.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: don k]
#6269239
04/21/16 02:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density? I never once said all HFs = breeders. I do say breeders = high densities. Which does take HF. Only one just wishing to argue for the sake of either arguing or deflection can deny that breeding operations create artificial deer densities on a scale not seen before breeding operations came along. Have you ever been to the Kerr Wildlife owned and run by the TPWS? Have you ever seen the amount of deer they have confined to a pen? Have you ever heard of a Deer there diagnosed with CWD? I wonder why that is? I don't know. That's why I am asking two very simple questions - which apparently no one can answer. All I know is all those in charge seem pretty dang worried about it. Killing folks' entire herds, passing laws stopping transport, etc.,etc.,etc. Just trying to find out if they are FOS or not.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269242
04/21/16 02:29 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density? I never once said all HFs = breeders. I do say breeders = high densities. Which does take HF. Only one just wishing to argue for the sake of either arguing or deflection can deny that breeding operations create artificial deer densities on a scale not seen before breeding operations came along. Really.... What is going with LF wild deer is just deflection from the question of whether or not HF practices increase risk.
If bunching deer up more increases risk, having more instances of bunched up deer increases risk.
A fence isn't bunching deer up. Exceeding or pushing carring capacity is bunching deer up. Just more deflection. Anyone who drives the roads can see the HF breeder places with a bunch of deer confined in paddocks. That doesn't occur in nature. But to be more pointed.... The most ask risk deer in Texas are High Densities areas that have the ability for the disease to enter from else where(assuming CWD isn't spontaneous or genetic). While Breeders have high densities they also have more barriers of entries.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6269250
04/21/16 02:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
There you go rewriting the constitution again...That's funny being I wasn't the one that tried to make an association that all HF's equal breeders and as having high densities.........
Wait is that a third time I've mention high density? I never once said all HFs = breeders. I do say breeders = high densities. Which does take HF. Only one just wishing to argue for the sake of either arguing or deflection can deny that breeding operations create artificial deer densities on a scale not seen before breeding operations came along. Really.... What is going with LF wild deer is just deflection from the question of whether or not HF practices increase risk.
If bunching deer up more increases risk, having more instances of bunched up deer increases risk.
A fence isn't bunching deer up. Exceeding or pushing carring capacity is bunching deer up. Just more deflection. Anyone who drives the roads can see the HF breeder places with a bunch of deer confined in paddocks. That doesn't occur in nature. But to be more pointed.... The most ask risk deer in Texas are High Densities areas that have the ability for the disease to enter from else where(assuming CWD isn't spontaneous or genetic). While Breeders have high densities they also have more barriers of entries. Yes, really. That does not say all HFs are breeding operations. Or even come close. Crap BOBO you wear me out going here, there, everywhere but on the topic. And breeders breed deer to sell them and their butts are put on trucks to go to other places. You are the master misdirection artist. I'll give you that. Can you answer my 2 questions? Anyone?
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269264
04/21/16 02:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
They are:
Does CWD spread by deer to deer contact? and
Is this risk of transmitting CWD increased with increased deer densities?
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269286
04/21/16 02:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
mis-direction lol. More CWD infected deer have walked across the state line in Texas then have came from one breeder that had never imported a live deer from another state.
Problem is anytime some one gives facts that don't support you cause you claim mis- direction, etc and try to rewrite the constitution, to your liking.
No mis-direction in any of my posts. As it stands the highest density areas with the least amount of testing and least amount physical barriers are at the greatest risk to introduction of CWD. Those physical barrier could be body of water, distance from know CWD positive herd or HF or even double HF. How many times does that make it I have said High Density in this thread?
The herds currently at greatest risk in the state of Texas are West Texas, panhandle and north east Texas bording Arkansas. Aka Known CWD hotspots. Next would be the next closest to those areas and an increase risk to those areas with high densities
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269374
04/21/16 04:42 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192 |
They are:
Does CWD spread by deer to deer contact? and
Is this risk of transmitting CWD increased with increased deer densities? 1. Absolutely. 2. Absolutely. What you're missing is that even though it CAN be spread deer to deer and is also increased risk by density, it's an insignificant disease. You know how worms kill a few deer, cattle, sheep, goats, birds, etc? CWD's even less a risk than worms. Many many more cervids die from worms each year than die from CWD. Worms CAN be transmitted deer to deer. The risk can go up based on density, but no cervid population in the history of the planet has been decimated by worms. The only difference is that you can treat for worms and you can't for CWD. The saving grace is that CWD is so much harder to transmit, and so slow acting. It IS a great litmus for determining the sincerity of those charged with animal health. When someone is more concerned with a pathogen that kills a few thousand over 70 years than they are with pathogens that kill millions over a few weeks, it should make your truth radar peg out.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6269395
04/21/16 06:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 17,496
S.A. hunter
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 17,496 |
Can "deer science" have its own category?
I hate looking at this category and all I see is CWD. I'm sure I can't be the only one that feels this way. Working on it  right there with you Thank you sir. Carry-on 
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: therancher]
#6269591
04/21/16 01:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
They are:
Does CWD spread by deer to deer contact? and
Is this risk of transmitting CWD increased with increased deer densities? 1. Absolutely. 2. Absolutely. What you're missing is that even though it CAN be spread deer to deer and is also increased risk by density, it's an insignificant disease. You know how worms kill a few deer, cattle, sheep, goats, birds, etc? CWD's even less a risk than worms. Many many more cervids die from worms each year than die from CWD. Worms CAN be transmitted deer to deer. The risk can go up based on density, but no cervid population in the history of the planet has been decimated by worms. The only difference is that you can treat for worms and you can't for CWD. The saving grace is that CWD is so much harder to transmit, and so slow acting. It IS a great litmus for determining the sincerity of those charged with animal health. When someone is more concerned with a pathogen that kills a few thousand over 70 years than they are with pathogens that kill millions over a few weeks, it should make your truth radar peg out. Thank you for the answers. I am not an expert on the pathogen so I am not here to personally debate the seriousness or not of the risk. I do know that those who are trained to be experts treat it as a very serious threat. (Eradication, transport rules, etc.). I get that you disagree with that approach. From what I gather you believe there is an agenda of some sort at work across the country against breeders. But the eradication efforts are in areas with free-ranging populations also - which seems to work against the "agenda" theory. Also, if there is truly an "anti-breeder" agenda by the state/Feds, it would seem there are much more direct approaches to push said agenda. I just want to know what the state of the science is. Objectively.
Last edited by Nogalus Prairie; 04/21/16 01:30 PM.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269610
04/21/16 01:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
Who are the trained experts?
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6269619
04/21/16 01:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Who are the trained experts? I assume the state and federal biologists have degrees and are charged with knowing what there is to know about pathogens, disease vectors, etc.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269651
04/21/16 02:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
Who are the trained experts? I assume the state and federal biologists have degrees and are charged with knowing what there is to know about pathogens, disease vectors, etc. Interesting... Since the two states with the longest history of CWD don't and haven't implemented an eradication strategy. The only agency in state of Texas that has implemented an eradication strategy is TPWD and it's only on private herds, they completely ignore the CWD growth in west Texas and the panhandle. THAC doesn't have an eradication strategy. Infact TAHC had state congress step into to pull TPWD back on medina. If you could make policy what would you do?
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: flounder]
#6269657
04/21/16 02:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
If the answers to the two questions is "yes", then it seems to me the only issue left is the seriousness of the risk.
Which appears to be where therancher is coming from.
If the risk is low/of least concern, then the attention being given to the disease is unwarranted and we are wasting time and $$.
If it is high/serious or even possibly high/serious, then there is cause for grave concern and all efforts need to be made to minimize the risks.
That seems to be where the debate is right now. An honest debate about disease should not be driven by "agendas" - from any side.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269661
04/21/16 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192 |
They are:
Does CWD spread by deer to deer contact? and
Is this risk of transmitting CWD increased with increased deer densities? 1. Absolutely. 2. Absolutely. What you're missing is that even though it CAN be spread deer to deer and is also increased risk by density, it's an insignificant disease. You know how worms kill a few deer, cattle, sheep, goats, birds, etc? CWD's even less a risk than worms. Many many more cervids die from worms each year than die from CWD. Worms CAN be transmitted deer to deer. The risk can go up based on density, but no cervid population in the history of the planet has been decimated by worms. The only difference is that you can treat for worms and you can't for CWD. The saving grace is that CWD is so much harder to transmit, and so slow acting. It IS a great litmus for determining the sincerity of those charged with animal health. When someone is more concerned with a pathogen that kills a few thousand over 70 years than they are with pathogens that kill millions over a few weeks, it should make your truth radar peg out. Thank you for the answers. I am not an expert on the pathogen so I am not here to personally debate the seriousness or not of the risk. I do know that those who are trained to be experts treat it as a very serious threat. (Eradication, transport rules, etc.). I get that you disagree with that approach. From what I gather you believe there is an agenda of some sort at work across the country against breeders. But the eradication efforts are in areas with free-ranging populations also - which seems to work against the "agenda" theory. Also, if there is truly an "anti-breeder" agenda by the state/Feds, it would seem there are much more direct approaches to push said agenda. I just want to know what the state of the science is. Objectively. Again. The proof of skewed intentions is the level of concern you mention over a disease that kills slowly and transmits extremely poorly. When someone is vastly more concerned over a pathogen that over 6 or 7 decades has only killed in the 5 figures range while totally ignoring two pathogens that in a matter of weeks can and do kill in the 7 figure range, you should question their motives. You say you want to know what the state of the science is "objectively". There is absolutely no objectivity in the above illustration. And the sad thing is, the folks charged with animal health in Texas are following that MO.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6269667
04/21/16 02:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Who are the trained experts? I assume the state and federal biologists have degrees and are charged with knowing what there is to know about pathogens, disease vectors, etc. Interesting... Since the two states with the longest history of CWD don't and haven't implemented an eradication strategy. The only agency in state of Texas that has implemented an eradication strategy is TPWD and it's only on private herds, they completely ignore the CWD growth in west Texas and the panhandle. THAC doesn't have an eradication strategy. Infact TAHC had state congress step into to pull TPWD back on medina. If you could make policy what would you do? I would ask the best people available what the science is regarding the risk to our deer herds. Then I would act accordingly (or not act accordingly) based on the answers I got. The difference I might have with some is I would act as if the risk were significant unless the science definitively said the risk was not significant. Why? Because the cost of being wrong would be too high to pay IMO.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269678
04/21/16 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,192 |
Who are the trained experts? I assume the state and federal biologists have degrees and are charged with knowing what there is to know about pathogens, disease vectors, etc. Yes they do have degrees. Mine is in biomedical science. Doesn't make me an expert, and it doesn't make them experts. It also doesn't guarantee that logic and reason are involved in their protocols. It just means we have a piece of paper saying we went to college and graduated. And let me also state again that I am not a licensed breeder. I stand to gain immensely if breeding is outlawed. But what the state is doing is wrong.
Last edited by therancher; 04/21/16 02:13 PM.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: The first detection of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Europe, Norway Wild Reindeer
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#6269685
04/21/16 02:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,613 |
Who are the trained experts? I assume the state and federal biologists have degrees and are charged with knowing what there is to know about pathogens, disease vectors, etc. Interesting... Since the two states with the longest history of CWD don't and haven't implemented an eradication strategy. The only agency in state of Texas that has implemented an eradication strategy is TPWD and it's only on private herds, they completely ignore the CWD growth in west Texas and the panhandle. THAC doesn't have an eradication strategy. Infact TAHC had state congress step into to pull TPWD back on medina. If you could make policy what would you do? I would ask the best people available what the science is regarding the risk to our deer herds. Then I would act accordingly (or not act accordingly) based on the answers I got. The difference I might have with some is I would act as if the risk were significant unless the science definitively said the risk was not significant. Why? Because the cost of being wrong would be too high to pay IMO. Exact same thing the two states with the longest history of CWD have done. 50 years later they both still have game. Assuming predators continue to be controlled.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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