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Interesting article on the 9mm
#6210966
03/05/16 11:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,084
mikei
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211064
03/06/16 01:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,440
TFF Caribou
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,440 |
Nothing I havnt read a thousand times.
The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference. -George Washington
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: TFF Caribou]
#6211073
03/06/16 01:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,671
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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I'd be happy to take a stab at this... why did the FBI go back to the 9mm if the 10mm was so much better? The 10mm proved to be more cartridge than the average agent could handle. Why have the Navy SEALs used the SIG P226 in 9mm as their primary sidearm for decades? I would suggest the reliability of that particular pistol and the easy acquisition of 9mm ammo.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211088
03/06/16 01:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
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If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.
38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.
In small compact autos it makes a lot of sense. In anything that can handle 40 S&W though, I will opt for 40 caliber every time.
My favorite automatic pistol cartridge is 10mm, for full-sized autos. Good for self-defense, and useful for deer or pigs if the gun is accurate enough.
I've owned five different 10mm autos so far. My favorite out of the ones I've tried is the obsolete Colt Double Eagle. I had a long-slide govt model in 10mm that was very accurate, but it always seemed to have feeding problems, dang it.
The one I liked least was the "Ranger", manufactured by some fly by night brand-X outfit in the 80's.
I've also owned my share of 9mm autos... I guess my favorite so far would be the Ruger LC9.
Last edited by charlesb; 03/06/16 01:52 AM.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211207
03/06/16 02:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 213
Sherpa Dog
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 213 |
Here goes this age old debate again... The rest of the world against 9mm & trying to quote what CAG, NSWDG, or SAS are using.. Truthfully what it boils down to is shot placement & projectiles.. Who cares what everyone else shoots! If you can not handle a more powerful .40, .45, or 10mm then it does you little good. However if you are accurate with a 9mm loaded with with hydra-shok's & you have solid follow up shots, then your a force to be reckoned with. Do some research on CAG using .45's for so long & the many reasons why. But also keep in mind the majority of them are the size of a neanderthal & shoot more in 1 week than most do in 5 years.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211352
03/06/16 04:59 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 23,166
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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I'll be switching from Ranger 357sig to the Hornady 9mm +P+ Critical Duty. Far better round with less felt recoil and higher magazine capacity. Shot placement is key and follow ups are second most important
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211391
03/06/16 07:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,273
blackcoal
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Seems the problem/discussion that always comes up when around real pistoleros is what your opponent will be wearing, Tshirt, plus flannel, what about denim jacket or leather M/C jacket, and will it be a 230 # muscle builder or a 135 # thin teenager, and then will you be shooting at 7 feet or possibly having to take shots at longer range to protect yourself. And what if they are in an auto or behind a plate glass window, and will the pistol be your only weapon or will you have a companion armed with a rifle. Next throw in the mental state and possible use of drugs. Or the fact that your opponent is planning on this meeting, thus wearing more protective clothing. Under any of the above circumstances the best bullet in one instance may not be the best in another. Any thoughts or comments after "if" or "but" are in the real world. Just my
The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211610
03/06/16 03:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,418
Marc K
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I've been a .357/.44 mag guy for 35 years. But.....now I carry a mid-compact 9mm with 15 rounds.
Modern ammo is available to do anything I want to do with a small gun - from hollow point, to hardcast to serious penetration rounds.
I know it's unpopular, but I do prefer stacked loading in my mags, with hollow point on top. I'm not a highly trained warrior or LEO....and fully realize what an adrenaline dump does to my fine motor skills.
Marc
Last edited by Marc Kurth; 03/06/16 03:46 PM.
A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: Sherpa Dog]
#6211620
03/06/16 03:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
Pro Tracker
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Here goes this age old debate again... The rest of the world against 9mm & trying to quote what CAG, NSWDG, or SAS are using.. Truthfully what it boils down to is shot placement & projectiles.. Who cares what everyone else shoots! If you can not handle a more powerful .40, .45, or 10mm then it does you little good. However if you are accurate with a 9mm loaded with with hydra-shok's & you have solid follow up shots, then your a force to be reckoned with. Do some research on CAG using .45's for so long & the many reasons why. But also keep in mind the majority of them are the size of a neanderthal & shoot more in 1 week than most do in 5 years. Have they considered .32 ACP? - Lots less recoil there. Shot placement is the key.
Last edited by charlesb; 03/06/16 03:54 PM.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: blackcoal]
#6211633
03/06/16 04:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 23,166
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 23,166 |
Seems the problem/discussion that always comes up when around real pistoleros is what your opponent will be wearing, Tshirt, plus flannel, what about denim jacket or leather M/C jacket, and will it be a 230 # muscle builder or a 135 # thin teenager, and then will you be shooting at 7 feet or possibly having to take shots at longer range to protect yourself. And what if they are in an auto or behind a plate glass window, and will the pistol be your only weapon or will you have a companion armed with a rifle. Next throw in the mental state and possible use of drugs. Or the fact that your opponent is planning on this meeting, thus wearing more protective clothing. Under any of the above circumstances the best bullet in one instance may not be the best in another. Any thoughts or comments after "if" or "but" are in the real world. Just my Go check out Hornady Critical Duty. When some the nations largest departments with the most OIS are switching to that, there's something to take notice. The Critical Duty performs excellent in every scenario you mentioned
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: charlesb]
#6211636
03/06/16 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 213
Sherpa Dog
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 213 |
Here goes this age old debate again... The rest of the world against 9mm & trying to quote what CAG, NSWDG, or SAS are using.. Truthfully what it boils down to is shot placement & projectiles.. Who cares what everyone else shoots! If you can not handle a more powerful .40, .45, or 10mm then it does you little good. However if you are accurate with a 9mm loaded with with hydra-shok's & you have solid follow up shots, then your a force to be reckoned with. Do some research on CAG using .45's for so long & the many reasons why. But also keep in mind the majority of them are the size of a neanderthal & shoot more in 1 week than most do in 5 years. Have they considered .32 ACP? - Lots less recoil there. Shot placement is the key. Who knows what has been considered? If shot placement wasn't the key, you could always use a 155mm howitzer or griffin missile to solve some problems in the world.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211643
03/06/16 04:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 327
tehachapi
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 327 |
Opinions are like elbows, everyone has 2.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211745
03/06/16 06:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,245
Tactical Cowboy
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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I carry a .45, cause I'm not a girl.
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: BigPig]
#6211798
03/06/16 07:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,273
blackcoal
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,273 |
Seems the problem/discussion that always comes up when around real pistoleros is what your opponent will be wearing, Tshirt, plus flannel, what about denim jacket or leather M/C jacket, and will it be a 230 # muscle builder or a 135 # thin teenager, and then will you be shooting at 7 feet or possibly having to take shots at longer range to protect yourself. And what if they are in an auto or behind a plate glass window, and will the pistol be your only weapon or will you have a companion armed with a rifle. Next throw in the mental state and possible use of drugs. Or the fact that your opponent is planning on this meeting, thus wearing more protective clothing. Under any of the above circumstances the best bullet in one instance may not be the best in another. Any thoughts or comments after "if" or "but" are in the real world. Just my Go check out Hornady Critical Duty. When some the nations largest departments with the most OIS are switching to that, there's something to take notice. The Critical Duty performs excellent in every scenario you mentioned But should one use Critical Duty or Critical Defense ???
The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6211918
03/06/16 09:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 85
celtic okie
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 85 |
For a self defense pistol a 9mm is all you need especially with the best ammo.
As far as the question of Critical Duty or Critical Defense. Critical Duty was made specifically for LE use and to pass the FBI protocol.
This means it has more penetration vs the Critical Defense which was designed more for CCW or home defense.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: Tactical Cowboy]
#6212161
03/07/16 01:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,418
Marc K
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I carry a .45, cause I'm not a girl. The .45 ACP is what I trained my daughters with - to learn to handle my powerful handguns. But the 50 AE, 44 AMG and 44 MAG are all limited to 7-8 rounds. Marc
A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: Marc K]
#6212225
03/07/16 01:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 309
Elpatoloco
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 309 |
I carry a .45, cause I'm not a girl. The .45 ACP is what I trained my daughters with - to learn to handle my powerful handguns. But the 50 AE, 44 AMG and 44 MAG are all limited to 7-8 rounds. Marc I taught my boys on the .44 mag. Light loads at first, then worked the up to full power loads as they learned the recoil will not hurt you and they do not flinch. I would not even think of carrying anything less powerful than a .45 given the choice. These photos are near 10 years old. They both now prefer to use 1911's as John Moses Browning designed it in .45acp. The article has a few fallacies, some have already been addressed. It claims a handgun in 9mm will last longer because the gun is under less pressure. Last time I checked, the .45 was significanly lower pressure than the 9 or 40. Argue all you want about modern expanding ammo. It often fails to expand
Last edited by Elpatoloco; 03/07/16 02:06 AM.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6212390
03/07/16 03:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,265
maximus_flavius
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,265 |
The correct answer is .357 mag
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6212460
03/07/16 04:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,057
68A
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,057 |
He mentions the fbi and SEALS going to 9mm because of how reliable and ballistically awesome it is but then mentions the cheap price of ammo for training. Coincidence, I think not. Just like the old argument of the .308 being the best long range caliber because that's what the military uses. No doubt the 9mm is a good choice for a variety of situations and reasons, but to say the 9mm trumps all is a ridiculous statement. It comes down to what a person shoots the most comfortably and accurately with. Btw, I am a .45 man. If 14 rds of .45 can't stop them, then the 9mm has no hope.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: blackcoal]
#6212468
03/07/16 04:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,544
okstatefan
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,544 |
But should one use Critical Duty or Critical Defense ??? As best as I can figure; Critical Defense would be the best choice for some of the modern ultra-compact carry weapons like a Sig P938, Ruger LC9, S&W Shield, and the plethora of other short-barreled, personal defense, carry pistols. Critical Defense produces less pressure and velocity, and appears to have better bullet expansion. I think that once one gets up to the 3.5"+ barrel lengths, the Critical Duty is the higher pressure and more effective round.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: maximus_flavius]
#6212471
03/07/16 05:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,544
okstatefan
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,544 |
The correct answer is .357 mag I will say this. If I could only ever keep two of my firearms; they would likely be my .357 lever action and Ruger Security Six.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6212626
03/07/16 02:04 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,079
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,079 |
When I carry it's either a stock Sig 239 or a Browning Hi-Power, If it's in the pocket it's a custom 32 Tom Cat. If it's in the console it's a Loaded Model Springfield 45 ACP. The little 239 Sig is hard to beat, it's narrow, nothing to hang up on and in my opinion the most accurate and reliable of the compact's. Mines the old model with the 3.5 lb trigger.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: charlesb]
#6212760
03/07/16 03:39 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 329
bside
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 329 |
If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.
38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.
That's... not true. 9x18/.380 about 200-230 ft-lbf .38SPL runs about 300 9mm about 400 9mm +P about 450 +P+ up to ~500 .40S&W ~500
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm
[Re: mikei]
#6212831
03/07/16 04:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,671
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,671 |
Thirty years ago this would have been a worthwhile argument. In 2016, not so much.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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