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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6212862 03/07/16 05:06 PM
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I don't think it matters which round you get shot with, they're all going to hurt whom ever your shooting at. I like the .40 and carry one most of the time unless I can only get away with my LCP-380. Best advise I can offer is practice, practice, practice, until it becomes second nature. That's my two cents, spend them wisely.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6212881 03/07/16 05:26 PM
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I saw it was a Cheaper Than Dirt affiliated site and still clicked the link. DANG IT!

Wonder if they are trying to incite another run on 9mm to gouge gun owners again.

Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6212899 03/07/16 05:37 PM
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Everyone should carry what they are personally comfortable and confident with.

For Police or Military issue the 9mm has a lot of advantages and Police and Military have been making the transition for a while now with many dropping other pistol calibers.

Many times in Police or Military use multiple suspects/enemy is a common thing. So large ammo capacity and being able to make accurate multiple hits are very important.

Self defense or CCW carry, this usually is not as important but is a nice option in todays world of terrorism and gangs.

But like others have stated for an individual choice there are many other options that work fine.

I do love nice 1911's as much as anyone.

Reliability should be first, being able to make fast accurate multiple hits, enough ammo and if CCW something that you will actually carry. (Glocks are light, flat and carry lots of ammo)

The 9mm bullet has the most research and development of any self defense pistol ammo. So it has been advanced and tweaked for its velocity and expansion more than any pistol self defense ammo.

The best 9mm self defense ammo now days is very reliable for function and penetration/expansion.

But once again carry what you are confident and comfortable with.

As far as a long gun, I like a short barreled shotgun for the house because I have grown up shooting a shotgun and am both comfortable and confident with it.

A long gun away from the house I choose an AR.

But like hunting, bullet placement for the win.


Last edited by celtic okie; 03/07/16 05:41 PM.
Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6212969 03/07/16 06:47 PM
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Anyone who believes the 9mm is inadequate for self defense is more than welcome to barge into my house in the middle of the night for a real life test.

This is a Ford/Chevy debate. The 9, 40, 45, etc. are all adequate. So is the 380. I'll take the cheap ammo and more training that the 9mm allows.

Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: patriot07] #6213818 03/08/16 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
Anyone who believes the 9mm is inadequate for self defense is more than welcome to barge into my house in the middle of the night for a real life test.

This is a Ford/Chevy debate. The 9, 40, 45, etc. are all adequate. So is the 380. I'll take the cheap ammo and more training that the 9mm allows.


Choose what you like. I doubt any sane individual would volunteer to test your theory. Science along with the following FBI study state that the larger projectile is the winner.




Last edited by Elpatoloco; 03/08/16 04:18 AM.
Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6213821 03/08/16 04:16 AM
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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6213846 03/08/16 04:42 AM
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Oh good, a recent article that's relevant to today's advances in ammo. rolleyes

How about finding an article from 2015 instead of 1989


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: BigPig] #6214212 03/08/16 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig
Oh good, a recent article that's relevant to today's advances in ammo. rolleyes

How about finding an article from 2015 instead of 1989


Oh yes, and let us not forget how the laws of physics have been repealed in the mean-time.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: 68A] #6214460 03/08/16 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: 68A
He mentions the fbi and SEALS going to 9mm because of how reliable and ballistically awesome it is but then mentions the cheap price of ammo for training. Coincidence, I think not. Just like the old argument of the .308 being the best long range caliber because that's what the military uses. No doubt the 9mm is a good choice for a variety of situations and reasons, but to say the 9mm trumps all is a ridiculous statement. It comes down to what a person shoots the most cofortably and accurately with. Btw, I am a .45 man. If 14 rds of .45 can't stop them, then the 9mm has no hope.


I would give very little credence to anything from our federal government. Their studies and findings are very easily influenced by politics, politicians, political correctness, affirmative action, and money.

Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6215272 03/09/16 03:05 AM
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I have a 9mm, 40sw and 45acp. Carry all them, all depends on where and how I want to carry. Don't give two craps about penetration. I'm not trying to be a hero and save the world. Just trying to protect mine and me. If penetration was my priority, I would join the constitutional carry idiots and strap my AR on all the time.

Point being, if I shoot someone and hit them in the rush and craziness, they more than likely will be dead, dying or hurting so bad that they really don't want to play anymore.

As most have stated, carry what is comfortable and easy to use and control.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: BoomStick] #6215298 03/09/16 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: BoomStick


Point being, if I shoot someone and hit them in the rush and craziness, they more than likely will be dead, dying or hurting so bad that they really don't want to play anymore.


That will be the case ten minutes after, no doubt, but it's those ten or twenty seconds after you pull the trigger the first time that'll getcha. Otherwise, a .22 rim fire would suffice.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: RiverRider] #6215377 03/09/16 04:17 AM
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I vote 9mm...because once lead is banned and the ammo components are over-regulated here, the only ammo replenishment source will the NATO troops. peep

Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: charlesb] #6215416 03/09/16 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: charlesb
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Oh good, a recent article that's relevant to today's advances in ammo. rolleyes

How about finding an article from 2015 instead of 1989


Oh yes, and let us not forget how the laws of physics have been repealed in the mean-time.

This debate always cracks me up. "If we allow the 9mm all the advances of modern ammunition, it's as good as the .45 was 100 years ago."

Under equal parameters, the bigger calibers always win ballistically, period. The thing I like about a .45 is that even if I'm shooting ball ammo, the bullet is still the same size as a 9mm when (If) it expands.

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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6215469 03/09/16 11:47 AM
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I'm sure none of the advances in bullet design have been applied to any bullet other than the .355" bullets.
coffee


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: bside] #6215512 03/09/16 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: bside
Originally Posted By: charlesb
If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.

38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.



That's... not true.

9x18/.380 about 200-230 ft-lbf
.38SPL runs about 300
9mm about 400
9mm +P about 450
+P+ up to ~500
.40S&W ~500


Conveniently forgot to mention the 38 Spl and 40S&W +P loads.

More of that "if it doesn't fit the narrative, it goes down the memory hole" stuff that we see so much of these days.


Last edited by charlesb; 03/09/16 12:48 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: RiverRider] #6215526 03/09/16 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: BoomStick


Point being, if I shoot someone and hit them in the rush and craziness, they more than likely will be dead, dying or hurting so bad that they really don't want to play anymore.


That will be the case ten minutes after, no doubt, but it's those ten or twenty seconds after you pull the trigger the first time that'll getcha. Otherwise, a .22 rim fire would suffice.


Once you start poking holes in somebody it's a game changer no matter what caliber your shooting.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: charlesb] #6215630 03/09/16 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: charlesb
Originally Posted By: bside
Originally Posted By: charlesb
If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.

38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.



That's... not true.

9x18/.380 about 200-230 ft-lbf
.38SPL runs about 300
9mm about 400
9mm +P about 450
+P+ up to ~500
.40S&W ~500


Conveniently forgot to mention the 38 Spl and 40S&W +P loads.

More of that "if it doesn't fit the narrative, it goes down the memory hole" stuff that we see so much of these days.



Shocker! He called you out on your bs and you get butt hurt.

-38 Special is in the list above
-40 S&W+P would be even higher ft/lbs. which would further help his argument, not yours.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: J.G.] #6215747 03/09/16 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: charlesb
Originally Posted By: bside
Originally Posted By: charlesb
If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.

38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.



That's... not true.

9x18/.380 about 200-230 ft-lbf
.38SPL runs about 300
9mm about 400
9mm +P about 450
+P+ up to ~500
.40S&W ~500


Conveniently forgot to mention the 38 Spl and 40S&W +P loads.

More of that "if it doesn't fit the narrative, it goes down the memory hole" stuff that we see so much of these days.



Shocker! He called you out on your bs and you get butt hurt.

-38 Special is in the list above
-40 S&W+P would be even higher ft/lbs. which would further help his argument, not yours.


Shocker! - You get mixed up on what has been said, spouting off nonsense as a result.

This is often the result when ignorance is mixed with arrogance.

Someone less concerned with running people down might have like, you know... Asked for clarification if they failed to understand what was said?

"38 Spl and 40S&W +P loads" - Both are +P in that statement. The fact that 38 Spl (non +p) had already been mentioned should have been a clue for you.

Learn to read. - Learn not to troll.

Last edited by charlesb; 03/09/16 03:36 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: mikei] #6215778 03/09/16 03:40 PM
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^^

The point remains - If the numbers are right and normal 38 SPL generates 300 Ft/lb and the 9mm generates 400, then the 9mm generates 25% more power, which does not really lend itself to being considered on par with a 38 SPL.

Bringing up +P loads is beside the point, based on your own terms, which compare regular 9mm and 38SPL loads, at least as you presented your case.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: charlesb] #6215780 03/09/16 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: charlesb
Originally Posted By: bside
Originally Posted By: charlesb
If you are using 9mm, it is much like a .38 special in power.

38 special is widely considered to be marginal, which says a lot about the 9mm.



That's... not true.

9x18/.380 about 200-230 ft-lbf
.38SPL runs about 300
9mm about 400
9mm +P about 450
+P+ up to ~500
.40S&W ~500


Conveniently forgot to mention the 38 Spl and 40S&W +P loads.

More of that "if it doesn't fit the narrative, it goes down the memory hole" stuff that we see so much of these days.



You're digging your hole even deeper.
All I was doing was disproving your objectively false statement that 9mm ~= .38SPL, not compiling a list of all loads for all calibers, or attempting to "prove" 9mm = best mm.

If you very badly want to see .38 +P, tell me which load proves you right:
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-P-110-gr-Critical-Defense/
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?loadNo=23720

Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P is going ~300fps faster than .38spl +P at 124/125gr. 9mm (std) is going 200fps faster than .38spl +P.

This is real data and you said something wrong. Please move on from it rather than try to pretend I'm somehow biased for giving an answer supported by facts.

Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: charlesb] #6215807 03/09/16 03:55 PM
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When a smart person finds themselves in a hole, they stop digging. And when a dumb person is losing a debate, they revert to insults, because they have nothing else.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: jdk1985] #6215918 03/09/16 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: jdk1985
^^

The point remains - If the numbers are right and normal 38 SPL generates 300 Ft/lb and the 9mm generates 400, then the 9mm generates 25% more power


33.3333% more ;-)
If anything, I was being too generous to .38spl, a good number of the loads you'll find are in the 200-250 ft lbf range

Last edited by bside; 03/09/16 04:50 PM.
Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: bside] #6216312 03/09/16 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: bside
Originally Posted By: jdk1985
^^

The point remains - If the numbers are right and normal 38 SPL generates 300 Ft/lb and the 9mm generates 400, then the 9mm generates 25% more power


33.3333% more ;-)


True.


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Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: J.G.] #6216360 03/09/16 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
When a smart person finds themselves in a hole, they stop digging. And when a dumb person is losing a debate, they revert to insults, because they have nothing else.


Yes, I've noticed your tendency to insult when you have nothing worthwhile or relevant to say.


Kind regards, charlesb


Re: Interesting article on the 9mm [Re: jdk1985] #6216373 03/09/16 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: jdk1985
^^

The point remains - If the numbers are right and normal 38 SPL generates 300 Ft/lb and the 9mm generates 400, then the 9mm generates 25% more power, which does not really lend itself to being considered on par with a 38 SPL.

Bringing up +P loads is beside the point, based on your own terms, which compare regular 9mm and 38SPL loads, at least as you presented your case.



A good energy comparison would be the 38 Spl shooting the bullet weight and velocity that is typical for 38 Spl, compared to a standard 9mm load, with its typical bullet weight and velocity.

The 9mm develops more pressure - in a smaller case. It shoots a lighter bullet at higher velocity.

I'm reminded of the 45 ACP compared to the 40 S&W. Their energy figures are closer than one might imagine, if standard loadings are compared.

Last edited by charlesb; 03/09/16 08:42 PM.

Kind regards, charlesb


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