Very entertaining.

And some good points made.

I think a gut shot from 223 or 30.06 is gonna have the same result.

Consider a 200 yard shot on a that trophy buck from a 7-08 vs a properly loaded .223:

7-08, nosler 140 at 2800 - .4 mil elevation, and 2400fps on target.
223, 62 tsx at 2900 - .5 mil elevation, and 2260fps on target.

Consider also the significant reduction in recoil, and the fact that you can (should) pile primers at the range for less than half the cost.

I'm failing to see the downside...especially on thin skinned, medium game animals. The .223, properly loaded, drops them well beyond fine, and I've zero reservation in that regard.

Except the 7-08 will pack double the energy at that range

Except the 7-08 will pack double the energy at that range

Energy/smenergy. Only rookies who can't shoot have to worry about energy.

I just can't understand why there is never any middle ground on THF. The right bullet with the right load and proper shot placement from a 223 will kill any deer in Tx DED dead! A lot of people are very comfortable with their smaller rifles because of low recoil and the ability to practice a lot relatively cheap! Those guys are not the ones that myself or most guys are talking about when I/we say 223 aren't good deer guns. I shoot doe with both of my little guns. My 22-250 has dropped every doe that I have ever shot in its tracks but I don't use it when I'm buck hunting because I get buck fever. We just can't lump everyone into the same categories and say the 223 isn't a capable deer round because in the right hands it is. It's not in mine but it is in StxRanchmans. There is a middle ground. This is just like the damn HF/LF debate on here. Some people just can't seem to fathom(on both sides)that there is a middle ground! All HFs are not canned/livestock shooting. To say so is assanine! But on the flip side it is just as stupid to think that there are not plenty of HF places that give the rest a bad name if we lump them all in together. They are not anywhere near the same just as a 223 isn't equal in the hands of all people. Sorry for bringing up HF but dang sometimes this place frustrates the hell out of me.

I'm not going to question the guys who shoot 50+ deer a year successfully. My question is why you started using a .223 in the first place? There are even cheaper ammo options that are as or more effective (7.62x39 soft points immediately come to mind). Or was it generational, something you dad's did? Or did you just use it one time, it worked, and you stuck with it?

And I still like you even though you can't handle even a .243.

There no "winning" an argument on here. I rarely see anyone vociferously arguing against some issue admit that others may have a point. For most, the only sign I see that they have been given pause that someone might have a point is when the deflection techniques of personal attacks and "throwing their junk up on the table" begin.

The (admittedly few) times I have conceded someone has a point, it is almost always taken as a sign of weakness rather than reflection upon their discussion point.

But I continue to post on "hot topics" because I enjoy the discussion.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here's one - (L to R) .223, the bone-jarring .243 Win., and the shoulder-breaking elephant gun that is the mighty .270 WCF:



Yeah, they're all the same when it comes to cleanly taking deer.

Cause I am at work with not much to do, I started shooting a .222 which was a rifle my great grandma used (family thing) and my dad got the 25-06. Now my dad hunts with an AR and I get the 25-06. I've hunted with bot the AR and 25-06 and both work well (that is how I got on to the .223). I love the shot placement and trigger pull of the 25-06. But the AR is lighter and easier carry around (and looks cooler). Maybe if I started out shooting 30-06 I would be on the higher caliber side of things. I am looking at getting an AR (if anyone has one for sale) just cause it will be easier to handle and I do feel the 25-06 does a lot of meat damage to the shoulder compared to the .223. I get a lot more of the jelled blood and bone fragments with the 25.