Same results just earlier

I'm with you..

On good years if you know your fawns are virtually all born early I'll bet you don't see many spikes. And if you do then I don't think your risking much shooting the odd one or so spikes.

But if you don't know that your fawns were all born early then you are just screwing yourself nine ways to sunday.

I did see them born early in Kendall County and with great nutrition still saw a ton of spikes every year. If birth date on fawns was the main reason for the cause of spikes then by that thinking none born in April or May should ever be a spike. Spikes occur no matter when they are born or what the nutrition is, they are spikes for a reason the majority of the time....genetics. There will be a very very large percentage on the average ranch that will never grow into anything special(not anywhere close to 160 or even 130 for that matter). Most stay odd pointed- 3,5,7 etc. points into middle age or older IME.
Same with nutrition. You can't feed a spike genetics out of bag. I have seen branched antler yearlings standing next to spikes(both born at the same time) on ranches in poor rainfall years. Both had same nutrition.

"Spikes occur no matter when they are born or what the nutrition is, they are spikes for a reason the majority of the time....genetics."

My neighbors in south Texas, who killed effectively their entire buck fawn crop in 2011 (by shooting the 47 spikes that year), would disagree with you. I think they only saw 6 or 7 spikes in '12.

They still kill spikes, but not during drought years.

I personally know that statements wrong because I have the 8 month old and 21 month old bucks to prove it.

If anyone can tell me how to imbed or link a video, I will link a short vid of my 21 month old 10 point house pet that was a 6 inch spike last year.

Upload to photobucket, copy the the url link it gives you to embed it. Unless you have a YouTube account, then go that route.

Can you post links to another 100 21 month old 10 points that were spikes or is this just an isolated case? Will this now monster score 160 at 5? I can post pics of yearling 10 points also from a herd where all spikes were killed for 13 yrs. They are not the norm just as a spike yearling turning into a 10 point 2 yr old is very rare. During a drought is the best time to cull.

"During a drought is the best time to cull."

You and Murphy Ray are the only people I know who still believe that. My buds who lost a whole buck fawn crop sure changed their opinion. And they fired poor ol Murphy after that.

And yes, I have more than one example. This 10 point 21 month old buck and the two nubbins I currently have, if they make it to 5 years old and I can find some way to identify them.

[img]http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/BigIron_2007/th_HDV_0004_zpsnamugqde.mp4[/img]

Isolated cases of spikes blowing up are not the norm for spikes. You know that and just want to brag on your one case you have on video. I can also tell you tales of a couple that blew up but that would be out of 100's that did not. Wanna guess how many never turned into well below average deer at maturity that were spikes? Those couple who did blow up where not a monster buts still a good deer. Isolated incidences are not a reason to keep 100% of them in any year. If your bud lost a whole fawn crop then his future improved immensely without those now dead spikes int the breeding herd breeding more 100% yearling spike crops. I have been on both sides of this and know which side works the best from a management standpoint. For outfitters it does not work since they shooting for money on every mouth on the ranch. Nothing wrong with that but do not site rare cases as the norm. After time the spike shooting side will catch up and pass the non shooting side with income. The average deer will be worth more across the board. Culling early will always allow you to maximize your genetic potential.

On spikes born in normal months of May June and July on good years I'll agree with you. But when they are august thru November I'll never agree that those bucks can be judged correctly if they are spikes.

And the guys that killed all their buck fawns... That's a ranch of native south Texas deer that consistently produces mature bucks in the 150-190 range. That was after 7 years of following Murphy's advice to shoot all spikes. No way was the entire buck fawn crop inferior in 2011.

I will tell you that their cattle guy had grazed their 5300 acres down to dirt. And the cattle had eaten the tender brush back hard. They thought supplemental protein would make up for it, it didn't.

What you are saying is that an entire buck fawn crop can just one year become inferior cull worthy spikes. I completely disagree with that.

Mid November??? I believe I would have to see that unless there was some hormonal manipulation done somewhere with the doe.

Same concept on does continuing to cycle as there is on bucks holding antlers into April/May.

No manipulation at all. Not sure if they miscarried early and cycled again or what. But like I said, I've owned ranches in central, west and south Texas and have consistently seen October fawns. These nubbins and a couple of sisters are my first November fawns and I'm not implying that's normal.

If the doe fawns bred I'm sure they'll have November fawns as well.

When you live with the animals you learn a lot by observation. I think most people have a few oct fawns but just don't know it.

Doe fawn bred in Feb or March.
Here is a pic of a spotted fawn born in early Oct. This pic was taken in November that year. I have seen one fawn that looked like this at Christmas one time. He was this size also.

And no matter what you say, I am still not believing that 100% of a yearling buck crop were all spikes. What ever the % was that was spikes all I can say is "good riddance" for the future and better bucks that were not spikes as yearling. You do not progress without culling to allow your best genetics to continue forward IME.

Very educational thread.

No not all. In earlier posts I said "virtually all". I think they estimated their fawn crop at ~120 that year and if you figure half of the fawns are bucks then 47 out of that is pretty close to 100%.

They obviously had a few bucks survive that were not spikes. But JUST a few.

A few...like about 25% of the top end yearlings ...yeah 75% is almost 100% You are getting almost as bad as some the guys saying that humans might be able to get CWD.. pretty close used to only count in atom bombs and hand grenades

Ha! Not a problem. No way in he// 75% of those buck fawns just show up one year as spikes.

And there's no way you can legitimately explain it.

I could with more info on the place and records to look at but you still would not like my answer...kill them all

If I see an obviously young spike, I won't shoot it. If I see what appears to be a older buck with tall spikes, I want that one out of the local gene pool.

Hypothetical Records indicate 11/13 yearlings were spikes in 09, 10, 11, 12..........8 deer to work with over 4 age classes and not figuring in natural mortality, holes in fence and freak seismograph charge incidents.

AND out of the blood line

My thoughts as well 603

I'll never understand these bunny huggers that are scared to shoot spikes.