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 CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
#580729
01/31/09 10:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,626
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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duck & cover
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#580730
01/31/09 05:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
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The only reason I wouldn't like it is because it would be one more thing to worry about besides the width of antlers. JMO
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#580731
01/31/09 06:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,009
4X4FOREVER
Pro Tracker
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What a pain in the pants a check station would be. The first half of deer season it's near 80 degrees outside. BTW, who's gonna pay for this gem of an idea,,,,,? WE ARE!!! like my H&F license isnt high enough now! 
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#580732
01/31/09 06:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Sorry Vernon, I think it is a bad idea.
Not for the reasons some people fabricate, but if it were going to be restricted to a certain set of counties, I think it should be in counties that are being considered for AR's.
Places where the AR's are already in force are not, IMO, going to prove anything because of the already in place restrictions.
Counties under consideration however will show a whole different set of statistics, as older bucks with racks that won't meet the "Lucky 13" rule will be being logged in.
If instead of all the "little 1.5 babies" that were showing up at the processors, 4.5 to 6.5 year old 8 and 10 point basket racks with an inside spread of 9 or 10 inches, will be being logged in.
People can look at those animals and see that even with the best protein available, those animals would probably never meet the 13 inch requirement and would be breeding like rats.
I think it either needs to be state wide or if limited, limited to counties pre-AR for at least 2 seasons. JMO.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#580733
01/31/09 06:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
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I'd like to see TPWD put more effort/resources into the animals that are alive, in the habitat, ......the live deer that are being regulated.
If they expect to base a reg on age structure. Then BY GOD they ought to be able to tell me the age structure in any county/region/etc. that gets that reg. Age structure of LIVE DEER, I know the age of dead deer and you can't regulte that deer any more 'cept how your going to transport it, cook it, mount it, or selll it.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?  TPWD
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#580734
01/31/09 06:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
Overrated
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Quote:
Sorry Vernon, I think it is a bad idea.
Not for the reasons some people fabricate, but if it were going to be restricted to a certain set of counties, I think it should be in counties that are being considered for AR's.
Places where the AR's are already in force are not, IMO, going to prove anything because of the already in place restrictions.
Counties under consideration however will show a whole different set of statistics, as older bucks with racks that won't meet the "Lucky 13" rule will be being logged in.
If instead of all the "little 1.5 babies" that were showing up at the processors, 4.5 to 6.5 year old 8 and 10 point basket racks with an inside spread of 9 or 10 inches, will be being logged in.
People can look at those animals and see that even with the best protein available, those animals would probably never meet the 13 inch requirement and would be breeding like rats.
I think it either needs to be state wide or if limited, limited to counties pre-AR for at least 2 seasons. JMO.
Another excellent response Mr. Crazyhorse!  
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: Curly]
#580735
01/31/09 06:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,626
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry Vernon, I think it is a bad idea.
Not for the reasons some people fabricate, but if it were going to be restricted to a certain set of counties, I think it should be in counties that are being considered for AR's.
Places where the AR's are already in force are not, IMO, going to prove anything because of the already in place restrictions.
Counties under consideration however will show a whole different set of statistics, as older bucks with racks that won't meet the "Lucky 13" rule will be being logged in.
If instead of all the "little 1.5 babies" that were showing up at the processors, 4.5 to 6.5 year old 8 and 10 point basket racks with an inside spread of 9 or 10 inches, will be being logged in.
People can look at those animals and see that even with the best protein available, those animals would probably never meet the 13 inch requirement and would be breeding like rats.
I think it either needs to be state wide or if limited, limited to counties pre-AR for at least 2 seasons. JMO.
Another excellent response Mr. Crazyhorse!
As CH stated somewhere earlier... I am all about LESS is MORE when it comes to government. And I agree that overall, I wouldn't like the check stations....BUT...it might be a way to get better data to either support AR's or defeat them, which is where I agree...they need accurate data to make decisions and wish they had that before they started AR's.
It would be awesome to get accurate numbers on live deer. Problem is they don't lay down and let you measure them often. A good accurate statistical analysis of the deer being harvested, can provide the same data but probably more accurately than live surveys.
They based what little data they had on cataloging deer at select processors in select counties, then used that to regulate deer 300 miles and two geographic regions away.
I just wish they used better science and wold voluntarily show us the data tey used to make such decisions.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: PHishTX]
#580736
01/31/09 06:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I agree that the age structure of the herd needs to be one of the primary items in the management or proposed management scheme, but since the big "Albatross" around most hunters neck is the quest for the almighty antler, another primary, IMO, is the make up of the types of antlers on the deer in a given area.
Going over to the topic about cull tags, I believe Sig226 is correct and the buck in that second picture appears to be 13 inches or even slightly wider.
Yet no one on that lease is going to shoot the thing because it don't have very many B&C points, while having enough points to make it legal as a branch antlered buck and not a spike.
The other primary that needs to be considered is the overall sex ratio of the deer herd in any given area.
I do agree, that it is the live deer that need to be regulated and managed, not the dead ones.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#580737
01/31/09 06:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,735
helomech
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Quote:
I agree that the age structure of the herd needs to be one of the primary items in the management or proposed management scheme, but since the big "Albatross" around most hunters neck is the quest for the almighty antler, another primary, IMO, is the make up of the types of antlers on the deer in a given area.
Going over to the topic about cull tags, I believe Sig226 is correct and the buck in that second picture appears to be 13 inches or even slightly wider.
Yet no one on that lease is going to shoot the thing because it don't have very many B&C points, while having enough points to make it legal as a branch antlered buck and not a spike.
The other primary that needs to be considered is the overall sex ratio of the deer herd in any given area.
I do agree, that it is the live deer that need to be regulated and managed, not the dead ones.
I would be happy to shoot that deer. It is fun for me to go after a certain deer, more so than it is to shoot the biggest. Now if he and a big one came out at the same time the bigger one would die. But I would not be upset in the least if I ended my season with him.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: helomech]
#580738
01/31/09 07:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Something we can agree on for the most part.  I don't know if I would shoot the bigger deer unless he kept standing there after the one in the picture was on the ground. I like the odd ball racks, they have character, to me big racks don't have character, especially the "Cookie Cutter" 8's, 10's, or evem 12's, that the only difference in them is a few B&C points, but basically they are almost clones of each other. Give me something that is unusual, that sets that animal apart from the herd.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#580739
01/31/09 07:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,317
PrimitiveHunter
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I think it's a good idea. TPWD implemented a ruling that is so easy to violate (whether accidentally or on purpose) that abuse is going to occur. Is it fair to those that faithfully follow the law and pass on marginal bucks to let the lawbreakers off scott free? Yeah, you might get caught with an illegal buck but the odds are, you won't.
The knowledge that you have to check your buck should keep quite a few fingers off the trigger. That's the intent of ARs isn't it?
I think it's a stupid rule but if they're going to go with it, they should make every effort to produce the results they think it will.
Oklahoma has check stations for deer. I don't recall hearing anything about the sky falling in Oklahoma. Maybe some Okie members could give us their thoughts on it since they already deal with it. Maybe some real life opinions instead of our opinions based on....?
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#580740
01/31/09 07:40 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,048
deerfeeder
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I think there is information to be gathered from dead deer that can be used to regulate the live deer. There is no doubt in my mind check stations would be a royal pain, but if they actually managed to gather information that helped manage the statewide herd or set or lift ars then the inconvenience would be worth it. And they could be sunset so that after 3 to 6 years they would be done away with. Three to six years would be roughly the generic equivalent of 2 deer generations. There should be some useful data generated by then. 
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: deerfeeder]
#580741
01/31/09 08:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,046
jdickey
Extreme Tracker
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I think the logistics would be a total nightmare, not to mention the enforcement. I would suggest, instead, a mail-in survey such as what New Mexico does with their draw hunts.
I participate each year in a Federal survey for migratory birds, which the questions and responses are direct and to the point.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: jdickey]
#580742
01/31/09 09:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
Overrated
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Overrated
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A friend of mine who lives here now and is on my East Texas deer lease, grew up in Wisconsin. He and his whole family have hunted deer all their lives, both with bow and shotgun. Nobody in his family including him plus their surrounding neighbors will mind telling you they will shoot the first legal deer they see. They are done, they have venison and they are happy and proud. The success is in the venison they take, not the bones on their heads. His brothers have shot some true monster bucks. The racks of those monsters reside happily in boxes in garages and work sheds not on walls. Where they live, there are more deer than you can shake a stick at. Big, heavy, healthy ones too. No ARs and no check stations. I do think however that shotgun season is a short one. Each year, he looks forward to going back home to bow hunt with family and friends. When he gets back, he shares his Wiconsin venison and some fun hunting stories with me. Ooops, I think I got off on a tangent.....sorry.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: jdickey]
#580743
01/31/09 10:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I have hunted Nebraska a total of 6 times and they have a Mandatory check in that includes land owner killed deer and it does not seem to be any kind of a night mare to those folks, it is part and parcel of hunting in that state.
As I said elsewhere, everyone can find a reason to whine/gripe/complain talk about why it would not work, the kind of logistics nightmare it would be, additional costs or personnel, and if TP&W were to decide to institute such a system, everyone would squawk a little, but they would get used to it and once they did the complaing would be over.
I have hunted plenty of places where there was some form of check system to monitor game harvested, from the mandatory stuff if Nebraska and Nunavut, to the phone survey's done by Colorado after season.
Of all the ones I have participated in, IMO, the mandatory check stations are hands down the best.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: jdickey]
#580744
01/31/09 10:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,317
PrimitiveHunter
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Quote:
I think the logistics would be a total nightmare
Again, it's been a long standing practice in Oklahoma. Logistically speaking, I doubt that they are any smarter than us.
Plus, as a previous post mentioned, gathering data on all the deer mght just provide the proof that TPWD needs to cancel the program.
When the law came out about background checks, everyone said it would be a logistical nightmare. Unless you are 1 of 200 people buying all at once (ala gun show), the check takes less about 1 minute. Get a CHL and it doesn't even happen.
All this "hating" about check stations makes me wonder what people have to hide. Why is everyone suddenly concerned about logistics that the TPWD have to deal with?
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#580745
01/31/09 11:14 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
Overrated
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Overrated
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366 |
Regarding all of these opinions and points of view, maybe this is the kind of fire, thunder and enthusiasm we should all take to TP&W regulation proposal meetings.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#580746
02/01/09 01:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,735
helomech
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the logistics would be a total nightmare
Again, it's been a long standing practice in Oklahoma. Logistically speaking, I doubt that they are any smarter than us.
Plus, as a previous post mentioned, gathering data on all the deer mght just provide the proof that TPWD needs to cancel the program.
When the law came out about background checks, everyone said it would be a logistical nightmare. Unless you are 1 of 200 people buying all at once (ala gun show), the check takes less about 1 minute. Get a CHL and it doesn't even happen.
All this "hating" about check stations makes me wonder what people have to hide. Why is everyone suddenly concerned about logistics that the TPWD have to deal with?
I am not hiding anything, I just see no reason to bring my deer somewhere. I can give the exact same info from my house. And more detailed than they will get at a check station. Why do some of you think someone with 2 hours class time on checking a deer can give better info than someone that hunts? I think if check stations happen more people will just not check off their hunting license when something is killed.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: 4X4FOREVER]
#580747
02/01/09 07:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,719
DSST_Construction
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Quote:
What a pain in the pants a check station would be.
The first half of deer season it's near 80 degrees outside.
BTW, who's gonna pay for this gem of an idea,,,,,? WE ARE!!! like my H&F license isnt high enough now!
you couldnt be more right
We work anything an everything masonry,we have been in this trade for over 40+ years of experience.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: DSST_Construction]
#580748
02/01/09 05:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 751
eastex
Tracker
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Tracker
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Posts: 751 |
just let the GW to there job they can go to the processors and check stuff out
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: helomech]
#580749
02/01/09 11:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,317
PrimitiveHunter
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Quote:
I can give the exact same info from my house. And more detailed than they will get at a check station.
Let me be perfectly clear about this first part. I am NOT talking about you. The reason they would get better info is because what they record at the check station is the truth; not what someone wants to submit from the safety of their home. If you accidentally killed a 12-1/2" buck in an AR county and got it home, would you go online and submit it to TPWD that you killed an illegal buck? How many hunters can accurately judge a deers age by the wear on it's teeth? How many hunters even kow that teeth wear/year varies among regions of the State?
If people submit info from their home, it would just be a waste of bandwidth on the World Wide Web.
Practice doesn’t make perfect.
Practice makes permanent.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#580750
02/01/09 11:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,735
helomech
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Quote:
Quote:
I can give the exact same info from my house. And more detailed than they will get at a check station.
Let me be perfectly clear about this first part. I am NOT talking about you. The reason they would get better info is because what they record at the check station is the truth; not what someone wants to submit from the safety of their home. If you accidentally killed a 12-1/2" buck in an AR county and got it home, would you go online and submit it to TPWD that you killed an illegal buck? How many hunters can accurately judge a deers age by the wear on it's teeth? How many hunters even kow that teeth wear/year varies among regions of the State?
If people submit info from their home, it would just be a waste of bandwidth on the World Wide Web.
I agree with you about the age thing, but I have a feeling those at the check station would not be any better at aging. Unless they had a true biologist or a game warden doing it. And we both know that aint going to happen.
As far as the 12 1/2 inch buck you are referring to, in that same situation that buck will never hit a check station. So they will not even know of the kill. Would it not be better to have the info of that deer being 13 1/2, as a lie but everything else correct?
I keep hearing about the ones that won't call, that is irrelevant, because those are the same one that wont bring it in either. That is a part of the population that will not take part with either system.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#580751
02/01/09 11:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,913
HillbillyDeluxe
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,913 |
Quote:
The reason they would get better info is because what they record at the check station is the truth; not what someone wants to submit from the safety of their home. If you accidentally killed a 12-1/2" buck in an AR county and got it home, would you go online and submit it to TPWD that you killed an illegal buck? How many hunters can accurately judge a deers age by the wear on it's teeth? How many hunters even kow that teeth wear/year varies among regions of the State?
If people submit info from their home, it would just be a waste of bandwidth on the World Wide Web.
I still can't figure out what these check stations will provide....in other posts, a proponent says there's no special training that will be needed because all the staff of these places is recording is the sex of the animal and the license number of the hunter. Now you're insinuating that they will be aged on site? That will require more than the part-time cashier at the Allsups checking a box on a form.
Secondly, your illegal deer analogy plays both ways...you think someone who shot an illegal 12 3/4" buck is going to drive it to a check-in station and turn himself in any more than he will submit it on-line?
Guess I just don't understand what information y'all are looking for with these check stations that can't be garnered otherwise, such as is obtained through MLD programs, etc.
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: HillbillyDeluxe]
#580752
02/02/09 01:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,194
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,194 |
The only good thing about check stations in AR counties would it would give the data on if the AR are working or not.... proving or disproving its purpose.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: CHECK STATION in AR Counties Only
[Re: HillbillyDeluxe]
#580753
02/02/09 02:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I am not sure how PH sees the system set up, but the system I envision, provides numbers for that county, that is all.
If an approximate age can be ascertained, so much for the better, but, a nub buck is a nub buck and anyone can tell that is a young deer.
What it would do, is give a somewht better view of what is going on, on low fence, non-MLD or LAMPS properties.
None of what I am suggesting is a duplication of efforts, but, a few folks seem to be grabbing at every straw available, but had TP&W not done away with the lease log books that were mandatory a few years back, I feel that a check station system would be unnecessary.
At one time, land owners had to keep a lease log of what was being killed on their property.
Then, just like now, people felt inconvinienced by such a system.
So what was TP&W's solution, go to processors and record the deer that were brought in, but evidently one piece of information not recorded was where those deer were being killed.
The result was that a processor might take in 300 deer during a season, and instead of a breakdown of where those deer were coming from, all that was submitted for the data was that such and such deer processor in such and such county took in "X" number of 1.5 year old bucks.
No effort was made to differentiate where those bucks came from, they were just 1.5 year old bucks and that was all that mattered.
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