Give them time. If you think a hog is bad then you will understand what an Aoudad is to West Texas. You can tell I don't care for Elk and Aoudads. Oh and hogs too.

Right..... but even after you said all that the fact is the new herds are not native.

While a few good Muley bucks are killed in West Texas each year, most that are harvested are pencil horned runts compared to their Rocky Mountain cousins. If that's a proper balance I'll pass.

You sound exactly like my ignorant counterparts that live in Louisiana....wait, i see it now

texas:

Before I answer this are you referring to me?

Correct but same time it's a subspecies that actuay smaller then the Merriem, same reproduction cycle just smaller.

By your thinking southern NM and majority of AZ would also have habitat issues via the re-introduction

Mulie deer do not herd up like elk. Easier to take out a herd then hunt individuals or a few small pockets.

Canvasback is prized more for their meat then any other ducks in the late 1800's... Which duck suffered the most mallard or can?

If your doing to roll that way don't forget big horns........

Your first sentence contradicts your second.

And I disagree with the view - I am a proponent of native species returning to their natural range. I'm also a fan of the increase in bear population in TX as well.

Down in my neck of the woods, I'd love for nothing more than for native prairie to be re-introduced, along with the abundant wildlife that it once supported (quail, for one).

Audads are a true exotic, eradicate them.

I feel stupid. I had no idea there were elk in Texas.

I saw some on Highway 46 south of Boerne - or maybe they were red deer.

There are far more killed than reported. Just because you don't hear about them or see them does not mean they are not there.

Not really. The Elk left and Mule Deer numbers started to take off. Sheep and goats numbers decline and Mule Deer numbers started to grow. Now with Aoudads and Elk numbers increasing the Mule Deer numbers are declining. Interesting is it not? I am a proponent of Native species returning to there range also. These exotic Elk are not and will never be the native ones that were there. What does TPWD consider them? If the consider them a Big Game species they would regulate the season, but they don't. They are considered an exotic. The holy grail of record books does not consider them native either, only an exotic.

Were Desert Big Horns ever totally gone?

To answer the question on how far they will go, there have been tagged bulls known to travel over 1,000 miles. That's extreme and why it made the news, but it does show that there really is no limit to how far one might go. My thinking is that if you only see one, then it's looking for others and it's going to keep moving until it finds a herd. Here in East Texas a few years ago somebody shot a 5x5 bull elk along the Sabine River. It made the news and all the speculation was about where it came from. Obviously he escaped a HF property, but when and where was never answered.

Eddie

I asked this question on another forum with some pretty sharp cookies, this was one of the responses from a guy that knows his shiz about these things:



And this, which goes back to my comment earlier that often times the numbers we currently see are not natural numbers, but inflated numbers due to supplemental feeding, protein feeding and basically alteration of the environment to saturate it beyond its natural carrying capacity:

Yes, actually you do contradict yourself. Nature formed a balance without elk simply because man decided to overhunt the species - it was not nature's choice, but rather deliberate actions by man. Much like with bison and a host of other species we consider trophies that were a dime a dozen 150 years ago.

And as far as the Rocky Mountain elk that were introduced not being native - there is a whole lot of debate on whether Merriam's was even it's own species, or simply a variation of the RM elk. Genetically, there is almost no difference between what we know from Merriam's DNA versus the RM DNA from current elk herds. Essentially, you are really getting into the splitting of hairs here - and peach fuzz hairs at that.

TWPD considers them an exotic, but that is purely legislative. For now. But they also readily concede that elk were once native to Texas.

Keep in mind that our beloved white tail in Texas are also, for the purposes of this discussion, not native to Texas - many hundreds, if not thousands, of white tails were re-introduced to Texas from Kansas after the depression era, when the state's heard was nearly wiped out due to over hunting. TWPD considers them native - largely because their budget depends on it.

Longfellow(800+ hd by their count) and surrounding neighbors have a the largest population that I know of out west. They stocked Elk in 1991 and the drought started not to long after that and continues today. The Escalara is north of them has a large herd of Elk and we are just north of them. We have a major drainage and the Elk are moving up it to the north. Our MD population was highest 8 yrs ago and has steadily dropped. The last 2 yrs have seen better fawn crops so I am hoping it rebounds. But with Elk, Aoudad and WT numbers increasing it does not look good. The Elk on our lease tend to move in and out from time to time which helps. Just because they are grazers does not mean the do not effect MD. Cattle and other livestock are grazers and they will shift to browse/forbes when the grass is not there. So yes IMO Elk do compete with MD. I have watched Elk cows/calves browse also in the winter months. Our ranch on half is stocked with very good stocking rates with cattle and that is part where the Elk are living.
I will agree on protein supplements and problems the can cause. But, we do not have a feeder on the ranch and I am sure that most if not all of our neighbors don't have them. If they did then the Elk and Aoudads would live there and camp on those feeders. I will also agree with a statement above about animals camping on feeders. That concentrates all those exotics in one location. The habitat will suffer due to them as much or more so than Mule Deer. From what I have seen is that Mule Deer tend to move away from the competition around the feeders with those exotics. I hope the neighbors do start to feed since we have growing numbers of Elk and Aoudads.
The habitat has changed in the past from what it was when the Elk was once native. Grazing practices in the past and droughts during that time changed the habitat. Grass eaters eating inside a confined fenced area. Elk and Aoudads just move onto to greener pastures.
Also many of the larger ranches have been sold off and split into smaller ranches. Water was increased on many of them and that has led to a bigger growth area.
Good debate But you convince me that Elk are good for us in an Elk debate with me since I do not care for them at all. They are just another exotic to me and I feel all of them should be

Those deliberate actions by man are the same actions that are trying to bring them back into a change habitat. You want my words to contradict so I leave it at that. For me, Elk in Texas from when they were brought into exotic ranches and then released into West Texas will always be an exotic. If TPWD thought differently they would never have taken them out of their rule. TPWD also restocked and stocked a lot of areas of Texas with South Texas whitetails after all those Kansas deer died or where poached

I luvs me some Elk.........Rather eat one Elk steak, than 20 mule deer steaks....

Are the elk of New Mexico native?

B&C does accept that some Elk in Texas would be considered as they acknowledge there are some herds that are there and have been for years. Texas had an elk season for years managed much like they do pronghorn with permits issues to the landowners. Then the Great State of Texas decided the to quit managing the elk herd and declared all elk in Texas as exotics. With that designation B&C will not consider an elk from Texas even if from one of the recognized herds like those in the Glass Mountains and a few other ranges. Or the ones that migrate into the panhandle.

For that question at the top, no they are not native elk but from elk that were stocked from the Yellowstone heard. There may have been a few Merriam elk left there but most accounts they were killed out and are now an extinct species just like the eastern elk. If not for one rancher in California you could have counted the Tule Elk in that list.

Kmon, I remember those "odd" seasons, but that was "way back when".

IMO, may not be the "specific" animal, but of the same genus, if that is what you would call it. So in that regard, I can see them as "native". Wonder why the state stopped the management thing? rancher politics?

Politics for sure and our brilliant leaders at the TPWD that have a save the Desert Bighorn at all cost mentality. If a 1/3 of the money and man hours had been spent on the Elk herds in the state parks out west then 50 to 100 Texans would be hunting Elk every year on state land in Texas instead of one person a year hunting the desert bighorn. Baker

I would agree with that and not knowing the reasons. A bunch of cash leaves TX for elk elsewhere.

I guess if someone would pay 100K to hunt an elk like some have for the sheep then things might be different.. Follow the Money

Excactly what I was thinking.......Damn shame if that is the way it is.