[/quote]
I would too and Iran also haha if I had the budget and there wasn't a looming threat of the Taliban waiting to blow my head off.[/quote]

We've got enough of that in our homeland at the moment without having to go overseas to face it. Just two weeks ago an 18 year old ISIS youth in Melbourne attempted to stab and behead 2 police officers. In Australia at the moment, military personnel aren't allowed to wear uniforms off base amid fears of being targetted by ISIS members living in Australia. And on the news the other day one couple were being forced to take down the Australian flag flying in their front yard because "it's too sensitive at the moment".

Might be better off in the middle east!

Jack,
They don't report that in the US news media.....it would not be politically correct. The liberals do not want to offend anyone.

Problem with most of this argument is even the taxonomists argue about where to make the splits on sheep. So all you can really go off is where the sheep are from originally - but that info is long lost. There's no registry, even the zoos can have marginal records about original stock, and have had varied practices of maintaining purity as taxonomy practices change. Most hunter groups like SCI/Ovis etc are not great guides to go by b/c they have a financial motive to create more 'species' that a hunter can enter in their books and the outfitters that petition have an obvious incentive to create more records categories as well.


The difference between a true afghan urial and a Transcaspian is about the same as the difference between a northern whitetail and a Texas whitetail - sure it's obvious to the avid whitetail hunter, but not to the average hunter and certainly not the average joe. All you have to go off are size, some characteristics of the head gear, and coloration - all of which can vary on an individual, a regional subgroup (think hill country deer v. North tx, v, south tx) and can be accentuated or lost in manipulated situations.

That said - most US afghans are animals that fell out of the process of trying to 'recreate' transcaspians via breeding with cheaper or more common sheep (hence they are mid-range price wise) - some of which look good some not so good. It became a nomenclature to make these animals more attractive for sale. Given the generally mid range price, I would say this is OK, but it has definately been taken advantage of - same as the case with Reds.

I cannot speak to the Prior animals, don't know their history and don't know any more about them than has been said on here. White Elk Afghans are definitely fall-outs as even their TCUs are mixed. The ones in the first pics look on par with the 'not quite' Transcaspian category.

Unfortunately it is truly a buyer beware market for the breeder and the hunter and in the case of sheep it's worth educating ones self.

I agree about white elk ranch they are very hit or miss with the quality of their animals from what I've heard and seen...

Txnrog,
Well stated, Great analogy .

Kobus.
The early TCU's shot on the White Elk Ranch look pretty good, the later one mmm, I know he purchased them from the Patio Ranch in Texas.

One thing we know for sure, a sheep is a sheep! LIG!

Are Patios t caps mixed?

I would think they have some good looking TCU's. I know they hunted some hybrids and advertised them as hybrids ,Big a$$ Rams, they are posted on there web site.

Patio doesn't have them any more. They got rid of them when they started to find signs that their original stock wasn't what they'd been sold.

If they did, I would trust them - they have very high standards on keeping lines pure.

Circle H has one of the strongest sheep programs I am aware of. They sell what I think most would call Afghans as Urial hybrids as fall outs of their red sheep program.

Stagman, we posted at the same time apparently. Patio started selling the 'hybrids' once they realized their original TCUs weren't what they'd been sold. To me that says a lot about their ethics.

Part of the problem with allowing ANY influx of other species genetics - eventually they will start throwing back to the lesser parent even if 7/8ths or better.

White Elk bought patio's stock knowing what they were and turned around and started selling them as pure. . . Says something too.

Yesterdays kill. What do y'all think? Pretty darn good one.
Clay Pope

Clay, nice looking sheep. What did you sell that as?

That would be an Afghan. And an awesome ram to boot! Pretty coat on him!

That IS a Beautiful Ram! but Afghan with a Saddle Patch? now I AM confused??

If you want to educate yourself on these breeds, ignore what you see fromTx ranches or white elk and go look at what's been harvested in their home range and look at the old reading. You can compare these back to what you see in TX for some reference.

Afghans I can find as confirmed pics from their home range don't have a saddle patch nor does it make sense that they would. They also have a bib (the long hair at the base of the jaw). They are largely insulated from the mid-east mouflons (armenian) and Mouflon/urial hybrids of Central Iran (red, Esfahan, laristan, Shiraz, Kerman) by the Transcaspian Urials. Mouflons to the west, progressively more 'urial' looking as you go east. TCU, Afghan, blanford, Punjab, and Ladakh (Shapo) roughly in order going West to East ( with some north/south size variation due to climate)

Tx 'afghans' in my experience are TCU/European mouflons or 3/4 TCU/Armenians (reds back crossed to TCUs)

TCU's occasionally have a darker stripe on their shoulder and a very thin, faint saddle but that tends to wash out as they mature, rather than get more prominent as it does in mouflons. But given the tendency to cross sheep in TX it would be a trait I would avoid.

IMO, if you see a mature 5+ yr 'pure urial' of any nomenclature with a saddle patch, I'd be a bit suspect -'just like if you saw a mouflon that turns out at the bottom of the curl - possible, but more likely hybridization.

Bib and Ruff color can vary from what I have seen both based on age and where the sheep are from and is not a great indicator - TCUs and Afghans tend to have the most white, esp in the northern parts of their range. As you go south, they tend to get more black or salt and pepper in their beard and ruff.

Clay,

Is that ram suppose to be an Afghan Urial or a hybrid? Horn shape looks right for an Afghan but the saddle patch and the dark hair in the mane would say it is a hybrid.

TonyinVA,

In my opinion.

Building an Afghan on above ram.

a) Horn configuration looks correct.. major ridge wrinkles
b) I would delete white saddle patch
c) Replace brown patch on throat with a small white bib.

Once again in my humble opinion.

SheepHunter,

I think we agree. That said, I have been reading up on wild sheep, and there are a bunch of different types of Afghans and they all look similar but some have dark in the mane ,,,but I did not see a saddle patch.

So what are Priour's Afghans then to you?

Kobus,

I have no way of knowing what their pedigree is, but from researching pictures on the internet (not hunting ranches in Texas) most of the photos of rams killed on the Priour look like an Afghan Urial is suppose to look.

Some folks might say that some of the photos of the Priour Afghan rams have too much dark hair in the mane (they are suppose to be white, but for all I know it just may be an individual rams trait....or maybe it is because there is some other sheep blood there). Who knows. It probably all goes back to where they got the sheep from originally, and as SheepHunter stated....how do we really know what's "pure."

That said, if I was going to hunt an Afghan I'd start with an Outfitter that had access to hunt on the Priour.

BTW, I just tried to go to their website and it seems like it's not working.

Hey guys,
Looking at a picture from the Exotic Animal Field Guide by Mungall and it shows some Afghan rams in apparently their winter coat. The rams in the picture have white saddle patches.
Also, here is a video at the Priour showing some female Afghans along with a ram from there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gb6TcwmtGI
The ewes have small knobs or horns that appear to go only about 3-4 inches off their heads btw.

Where is the white saddle patch on the Afghan Ram taken on Priour in the video you posted ? Maybe I missed something in your post.

Most animals in the winter get darker like black buck. On the afghans in the summer when they slick off you really don't see the patch in the winter you do. If you look at horn configuration look at all these Rams on this page every picture that is mine, Kodiaks picture the round look those are afghans. When they start turning up or turning up and out at their eyes that's a cross. I can look at sheep and telll. The ones up top below mine tony posted red sheep cross more red sheep in them. The 3 kobus posted are transcaspian crosses more transcaspian in them.
Clay

Kobus, those are pics of Texas animals. To my earlier posts, not a good gauge. Some folks argue that there are no pure afghan Urials in Tx, just a marketing term to sell urial hybrids.

Kobus,

The video was interesting.....and the hunt took place in Feb......and the ram has a solid color coat..,.no winter white saddle. Which is consistent with what a lot of folks with more knowledge than I have keep pointing out when describing what an Afghan Urial is suppose to look like.

The book you referenced is titled "Exotic Animal Field Guide Nonnative Hoofed Mammals in the United States." Notice the reference to "nonnative." I wonder if the picture you looked in that book were of "pure" Afghan Urials from the home rage or pictures of animals from Texas ranches...the ones you typically find in Texas which may or may not have other sheep breeds in them and hence have the classic Mouflon saddle.

Go look at this site

http://www.wildsheep.org/sheep/international.htm

About Afghan Urials it states "Generally a small sheep (around 100 pounds) which often has a white and black neck ruff similar to the Transcapian Urial." Here is the pic they have. Notice the horns actually curl up a little.






There are also a few types of Mouflons that look a lot like Afghan Urials (Laristan Mouflon and Shiraz Mouflon)...I could see a lot of confusion if someone wasn't an expert...which I am ot.

This all goes back to some of the original comments about "How do we really know the pedigree of what's on these Texas ranches." In my opinion it probably should boil down to "I you like the look of the animal and the price of the hunt...shoot it and be happy."

Could Priours afghans be an entirely other species of sheep?