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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: tlk]
#5100129
05/05/14 01:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737 |
I don't try other to alter the deer other than get rid of a buck that has really screwed up antlers. But I do try to alter the look of my Ibex. And from my experience with that it is a long drawn out process. I have been trying to alter them for over 20 years and I still have a long way to go. I can only imagine the problems associated with trying to change WT not in a confined pen. You are never going to get the exact type of deer you want because there are always going to be bucks breeding does that are not to your liking. You can take out the bucks you don't like but you don't know what the doe is responsible for. You could have the perfect buck and the perfect doe and still not get a perfect fawn. Unless you own your place or have a lifetime lease and you are still a young man just enjoy the hunting as it is because you don't have enough years left to worry about changing the deer herd. The doe is only 50% of the equation. Not only culling inferior bucks but also culling does to hold the number of overall deer down is also critical. Fewer mouths to feed the better the nutrition for the remaining deer. Then on top of that you cull inferior bucks at age 3 and 4. Why is it that two ranches in the same area with the same genetics and browse can have deer on one that are average while the other has deer that are well above average? It always boils down to genetics, nutrition, and age along with taking does and inferior bucks out - it can and does make a difference - it has been shown over and over through the years If your not culling until 4? Your efforts mirror exactly what I'm saying. Because you still have those culls breeding for up to 3- 4 years Two ranches right across the road from each other with different overall average score is easy to explain. Harvest age and nutrition make a huge difference, those being equal.. You are excluding your culls from your average also. Where the neighbor is including his.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5100131
05/05/14 01:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
BOBO can you tell me what those 200" deer were as a yearling?
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people? ![[Linked Image]](http://neoswarm.com/images/Bug_Crawling.gif)
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: stxranchman]
#5100132
05/05/14 01:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737 |
Again how can a dead deer keep breeding his look or genetics if he is dead and gone? The deer left that you like keep breeding their "look" and genetics. If culling does not work then why do ranches that cull heavily see continue improvement over time? I fully agree that your genetics are there. What you do with that genetics is what changes the looks of the overall herd IMO. Those deer that you left and percieved to be better are getting to breed and pass on their genetics longer. You can look at pics or deer taken in the past off of a ranch and see the genetic characteristics that are prevalent for that area. Because we are assuming the buck is the bottom or top of the antler genetic pool. You are also assuming only mature bucks breed. Then via you and TLK way of thinking eventually yall will be ONLY culling 155" 10pts in a couple years, never anything smaller. If that's the case you win, But that's not the case. You don't want to waste your money and time supplementing your bottom end genetics no problem. Killing them or leaving them doesn't effect genetic make up of your herd, if it was the case you wouldn't have 8pts ever. ... Bucks breed at all ages. That is why you start culling them as yearling bucks and cull hard in all age classes after that. Hard for a dead buck to do any breeding. I never assume..I aim and squeeze the trigger. How many tags does it take or percentage of buck herd to effectively cull every year?
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5100136
05/05/14 01:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Again how can a dead deer keep breeding his look or genetics if he is dead and gone? The deer left that you like keep breeding their "look" and genetics. If culling does not work then why do ranches that cull heavily see continue improvement over time? I fully agree that your genetics are there. What you do with that genetics is what changes the looks of the overall herd IMO. Those deer that you left and percieved to be better are getting to breed and pass on their genetics longer. You can look at pics or deer taken in the past off of a ranch and see the genetic characteristics that are prevalent for that area. Because we are assuming the buck is the bottom or top of the antler genetic pool. You are also assuming only mature bucks breed. Then via you and TLK way of thinking eventually yall will be ONLY culling 155" 10pts in a couple years, never anything smaller. If that's the case you win, But that's not the case. You don't want to waste your money and time supplementing your bottom end genetics no problem. Killing them or leaving them doesn't effect genetic make up of your herd, if it was the case you wouldn't have 8pts ever. ... Bucks breed at all ages. That is why you start culling them as yearling bucks and cull hard in all age classes after that. Hard for a dead buck to do any breeding. I never assume..I aim and squeeze the trigger. How many tags does it take or percentage of buck herd to effectively cull every year? It is not what you keep but what you take off. The answer on tags will vary from ranch to ranch from year to year.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: stxranchman]
#5100148
05/05/14 01:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Then you could shoot it down to nothing and have deer that top out a lot quicker than you'd like. But seeing how STX has his very own Gumby Jr, III & a nice dark-horned pale-face 8pt still living, I'm sensing since he couldn't beat me he chose to join me and my line of thinking. :large encore applause: :standing ovation:
Not sure I want to venture into your line of thinking or whatever it is up there   You already have and provided us with photo-evidence.  AR forced photo evidence. The mgmt 8 meets AR, besides we've all seen that you've labeled them as "property of stxranchman", so obviously you want to keep them.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: stxranchman]
#5100158
05/05/14 01:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737 |
BOBO can you tell me what those 200" deer were as a yearling? Only one of them can I trace back to a 2.5, the other we didn't take notice until 3.5(he was a crab clawed 9) but frame wise he was a stand out. At death he was a Main frame 11pt with a bunch of junk. 2.5 was straight 6pt at 3.5, he was 4x2(spike & kicker), then went to a 10pt at 4.5 ( with a little junk) When he was killed at 6.5 he had 39 6/8" of mass and 19" of NT. He had a white foot. He hung around the house until 3.5 then moved toward the river, back on the alfalfa and soybeans. He wasn't any thing overly special until 5.5, than he blew up almost 35" at 6.5
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: txshntr]
#5100184
05/05/14 02:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Neither side of the culling debate is wrong or right. ... is the point of my post. Its the common theme between the two that is.
Either side of the culling debate could be right or wrong...should be based on the ranch, geographical location, end goals, etc. One plan doesn't fit all The ETX plan fits all....it's more of a magic act though of creating big old deer where big old deer can't exist.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5100199
05/05/14 02:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 21,352
TurkeyHunter
determined
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determined
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 21,352 |
I listened to some noteworthy wildlife biologist talk about this a couple of years ago to a small group. Don't remember his name. Anyway he said for most typical sized places if your not on a high fence property or the other landowners or leases for the greater area are not following similar practices, then your pretty much wasting your time with special rules and such. It seemed to make sense.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5100253
05/05/14 02:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
If they could keep bobo from shootin the babies they would be golden   My nemesis last year. Him and STX might have same birth decade  This is the one I'll be keeping an eye on for a spot on the wall. 
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5100263
05/05/14 03:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 62,737 |
Ol brusier for sure!!!! Love the dual kickers
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5100270
05/05/14 03:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
He shouldn't exist though since we've shot nothing but 10pt frames off the place.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5101042
05/06/14 01:14 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 12,988
hoof n wings
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 12,988 |
I'd ask him if he's pregnant. He missed a s__tload of periods. I'll take "things that look like a uterus" for $200 Alex.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: rifleman]
#5101085
05/06/14 01:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
He shouldn't exist though since we've shot nothing but 10pt frames off the place. Still working off neighbors management
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: rifleman]
#5101091
05/06/14 01:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Neither side of the culling debate is wrong or right. ... is the point of my post. Its the common theme between the two that is.
Either side of the culling debate could be right or wrong...should be based on the ranch, geographical location, end goals, etc. One plan doesn't fit all The ETX plan fits all....it's more of a magic act though of creating big old deer where big old deer can't exist. "Your ETX plan" was what I did back from the mid 80's till late 90's. Seen what others were doing that worked much better so I changed and never looked back.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: rifleman]
#5101095
05/06/14 01:56 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Not sure I want to venture into your line of thinking or whatever it is up there You already have and provided us with photo-evidence. AR forced photo evidence. The mgmt 8 meets AR, besides we've all seen that you've labeled them as "property of stxranchman", so obviously you want to keep them. He did fit the bill so I called my cousin who had helped my family out with my Dad the past year to come and hunt for the buck. First and last time he was seen on that morning. So my fault for not shooting him when I saw but it would have meant more to me for him to kill him since he had never killed a buck that big in his life.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5101114
05/06/14 02:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
It works and works well, it's why ppl flock to unhunted properties when they get listed.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: rifleman]
#5101152
05/06/14 02:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
It works and works well, it's why ppl flock to unhunted properties when they get listed. By far the highest numbers of BIG bucks killed in Nacogdoches county was the first year they opened the season back in 1980 or so (after it had been closed for 20+ years).
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5101154
05/06/14 02:30 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I would rather "flock" to a well managed property though.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5101188
05/06/14 02:50 AM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 208
kpg4923
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 208 |
Anything legal. Half of our land has antler restrictions. The other doesn't.
We usually just shoot a couple of doe for meat and only shoot a buck if its really big. In fact I shot my first buck in over five years this year after killing a couple of doe every other year.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5101224
05/06/14 03:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
It works and works well, it's why ppl flock to unhunted properties when they get listed. By far the highest numbers of BIG bucks killed in Nacogdoches county was the first year they opened the season back in 1980 or so (after it had been closed for 20+ years). My FIL tells me about how it was night & day if you crossed 21. Said the thick pines to the south had quite a few deer, the fields to the north didnt have much of squat and it was big talk seeing a track up there for years.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: stxranchman]
#5101225
05/06/14 03:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
I would rather "flock" to a well managed property though. I'd rather flock to a hunting preserve if they wouldn't throw me in with the caged flock in county.
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: rifleman]
#5101282
05/06/14 04:38 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I would rather "flock" to a well managed property though. I'd rather flock to a hunting preserve if they would throw me in with the caged flock in county. You would be double "flocked" then
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: stxranchman]
#5101286
05/06/14 04:46 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,950
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,950 |
I would rather "flock" to a well managed property though. I'd rather flock to a hunting preserve if they would throw me in with the caged flock in county. You would be double "flocked" then 
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5110663
05/13/14 12:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451
Seadog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451 |
Sometimes I think people make hunting a lot more complicated than it is with too many rules!!! I like to hunt and try to shoot a mature animal every year!!! Some times I do and sometimes I don't but I do enjoy being in the woods without having to worry about getting fined by the club because its not a "trophy" by club rules!!! I'm not a trophy hunter so antlers really mean little to me at all and enjoying the great outdoors mean a lot more to me!!!
I support Cap and Trade - Cap our spending and Trade Obama
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Qualifications For Killing Bucks on Your Lease???
[Re: BenBob]
#5110690
05/13/14 12:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Wouldn't have had to try as hard to kill a mature animal if you'd have joined the dark side...they have an opening....
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