False. The sky isn't the limit, the Genetic potential of the bucks you let reach maturity is the limit. Culling is simply the choosing of which bucks will make it. Culling does not increase the top end score as much as it limits the number of the perceived low end deer that reach maturity.

Agree now lets look at praticality.....how many people on thf have the resources for a hard core culling operation....how many are willing to be dedicated to using both their buck tags on only spikes/young cull type bucks for the next ten + years?

You pay attention to much..lol

But according to the spike killer managers you can change the genetics by eliminating thrus allowing selective breeding. In "theory" that works on HF because you have slowed down dispersal enough that your culling efforts can keep up with it....and you think you can elimate as much of the environmental factors as possible with outstanding herd health

Only place that you can control mother nature is s breeding pen. Only place where you can watch a doe to figure out that if she has twins....and one is a spike and the other is a 6pt...(with the same father) if it is because one nursed more, because she only liked one..etc.

No one can look at a wild deer and tell why something is better then another a 1.5 years old...no one.

You can tell what was done right(enviromental factors, parenting, birth date etc)......but no one can say why it was lessor at 1.5 then its counter part...some just assume its all genetic.

There are other things to focus on that are much more benefital to your herd on lf then trying to play geneticist

someone's dedication to hunting and animal husbandry is not my concern. I'm just stating at what point one could legitimately expect to see reasonable changes in a study of herd health or "genetics"

personally I look at average live weight and dressed weight of mature animals as indicators for quality animals. Health will equals large antlers and as stated above a healthy animal will express his greatest genetic potential.

so with this line of thinking if a deer has all the resources to be health and all he can sprout is "pinche" spikes when others are sprouting branched antlers out he goes and I don't worry about the what if's

Same here..

I have a very light density and will maintain that ... still have spikes and we still shoot deer over 180 almost every year. Or average body weight and bc score keeps improving even with no restrictions on what kids shoot.

The key to any good plan is allowing yourself the ability to be able gamble on bucks.....I just choose my gamble to be my younger spikes.

I agree bobo, but that is why most people manage on the average and not the exception. Even this study shows a difference between the number of bucks with 3 points or less that made it to maturity compared to the number of bucks with 4 points or more that made it to maturity, and I still feel this was a biased study and it was mainly done on HF (and the reason cited for use of the HF contradicts your argument about HF's, but that is a different thread ).

I do find it fascinating that we can have this much debate over a topic that is almost inconsequential when compared to the entire management plans and practices that are required to be successful.

One plan does not fit all and just because something worked in one area/ranch/region it doesn't mean it will work somewhere else. Management is not black and white. Common sense and observational adjustments have to be made based on your herd and your goals.

You are well below CC and can afford to feed those inferior deer until they get older and then you let a kid shoot them

You are also in a heavy ag area and don't require supplemental feed for the bucks to reach their top end.

Most places in Texas do not have this luxury.

Not all work thats been cited here is HF.

Ive always said the spike debate is stupid if the one preaching it doesn't have the resources to make it to that top teir structure of a management plan...in fact is stupid to preach spike harvest if you dont even have the resources to do it as your first step.

Spike harvest has always been the most fought agruement...those that have the resources and time to manage for the exception will have a valid agruement...but they can no more disprove the the success of someone with equal resources and time that doesn't shoot spikes and vise versa.

You would think the average hunter would look at what those two successful plans have in common and not the differences...then focus on those they have the ability to do. Not implement the differences and site studies to sport some thing they have zero in common with other then an animal called a deer

Thats the funny part of the arguing parties when you think about it.....

I disagree a little with most places dont have, most places do if managed correctly, hence the need for a HF (mgmnt tool) to maintain keeping good and bad deer out so you can maximize your resources for what is in the fence

oh course its not the only way just the one i prefer, now i just need $ to put up the fence at our Brackettville ranch

all this ranch talk is my only fix for hunting this season since all my current mgmnt practices are going towards my 4 week old son

i havent been to the ranch since Labor day

Kids have zero restrictions...period. no influence on what they shoot...190 or 2" its what they want

Our ag is our change in mind set from coventional hay production to profitable yet deer friendly ag crops. Same thing anyone can do... we choose to move away from coastal and klein..we still have the same mother nature restrictions and still work our tails off to keep densities well below cc so ag production is always a plus not a for sure in the cc.

Not entirely sure what you are saying most places have that me or bobo are saying they don't have...

But most places are not highly managed. The majority of leases and ranches in Texas are semi-managed or not really managed at all. Letting deer get older is not a management plan, it helps, but that is not management. Most ranches/leases do not have the resources. Whether that is the money, or tags, or dedication... most don't have the capability. Many places across Texas are over populated and it would take extreme measures for a period of time to get this under control. Some say the answer is with MLD but many of the MLD places that I have been only issue enough tags to maintain, and sometimes not even that.

I haven't been to mine since aug..lol. 8month preg wife. The pics are killing me 184 and 158

You two need to learn to plan better

And they sure didn't get over populated because people are so tag happy

yep and no going after either

all deer are getting a pass this year

Then the culling strategy has failed j/k

Congrats by the way..I do fill your pain

Lol.....thats a funny one...you know how women get when they are ready to have the first kid..lol

tag happy for antlers........skin heads walking causes all kind of issues

My point exactly!!!!

yeah but, every opening weekend we will celebrate the boys birthday with a father son hunt

you gotta find the silver lining

Lol. I convinced mine we needed to "practice"

The best part of the entire thread

lock it now

j/k

i love rational debate