This is why I have about decided just to take my alloted does and leave anything but old funky bucks alone.

Vanguard..

Menard some pretty country

hunting the high fence didnt make me think they should be outlawed it was being on the other side that did, 2 friends small acre ranches were ruined when fences went up around them.
ya i hunted the chap because they would do these youth hunts during thanksgiving we would go as a standby and they would almost never send away the youths, they made room for all of us. i even get on as a standby on a archery hunt one time but it was nothing like the youth hunts when we were allowed to throw out corn

Pretty much the best plan on lf with limited tag numbers...

bobo ive never killed a huge buck actually ive never killed a buck on high fence, not because i wouldnt but because i wasnt allowed, i take that back i know of one small managent buck i killed in a fence. ive been on some outstanding high fence places with huge deer, just dont have the checkbook, i did shoot some meat though for free.

my buck this year would be my best, free range, first deer ive killed on this place in 5 years, next would be my axis free range again.

Gotcha, ive hunted a couple hf had the green light just never saw one with enough age.

I'm not a Dr or even very smart and will take tomorrow's trophies today, I don't really care but it seems to me taking any deer at a year old is bad business. Give em chance let them grow. I graduated high school at 17 years old and was 5'10 160 pounds two years later and still today I'm 6'4 190. Everybody said I was done growing, some are just late bloomers. Let em grow and decide at three plus.

yes i agree a spike will develope into something worth shooting later, question is for those who can manage a deer herd , are they should they be given a pass.

if the herd is properly balanced, a yearling spike will do about zero breeding. so all your doing by letting him live to 2 years old, is feeding him for one more year.

people should concentrate less on spikes and worry about shooting 3 and 4 year old 8 points if they are trying to manage for antlers

let me ask you what we should do, the place i been hunting for the past 5 years and owner there for 14 years has not produced anything over 8 points, thats it 8 points and 120 inch bucks what can we do here, low fence small acreage but no one hunts around us, prolly 5 k acres around us with no one hunting, we have lots of deer. what can we do to get them bigger.

how big is the acreage your hunting, and what county?

its going be be hard if your hunting, say, 200 acres, to influence the genetics on 5k acres if no one there is doing any kind of managment whatsoever.

A few years ago, it was kind of a rare thing to see a ten point at our place. not out of the question, but it was something someone talked about when they came back to camp. then we started hammering the 8's, leaving the tens alone. didn't kill a deer over 9 points from 2008-2011. now, its the opposite. any buck over 3 years old generally has ten points. if it dosen't, it gets shot.

of course, we are in a different situation, we are high fenced, there was a ten point gene present that we can manipulate thru harvest, etc....BUT, if your low fenced, it would be almost impossible imo to not have a deer, buck or doe, with a ten point gene, come into your hunting area.

were on 160 but like i said were the only ones hunting in a couple mile radius, live oak county

A pretty good read for those that have time and interest:

http://www.texasdeerassociation.com/article_info.php?articles_id=282

http://www.texasdeerassociation.com/article_info.php?articles_id=277



Lets say that you have a buck to doe ration of 1:1 which most places do not have. Then 50% of the genetic traits are from deer you have no idea what they will produce for antlers.

Another DNA study of twin fawns showed that often they are sired by different bucks, I do not remember the percentage but it was a lot higher than many would believe.

where is a link for Koll's study.................. until its posted I wouldn't refrence it as the end all.

With little hunting it may have more to do with population then genetics.

If you see a ton of deer every time you hunt might lay the fire to the does

nice buck regardless......i wouldn thave shot him since he had a tag in his ear...(wouldnt have for a price anyway) but as far as the spike shooting deal. if the deer is 1 to 2.5 yrs old, i wont shoot. If he is older, i certainly will because obviously he is gonna go from a 3 year old spike to a 4 or 5 year old 170"+ deer.

its gonna be real hard to influence genetics on a large area if you can only control 160 acres.

live oak county, depending on where your at, is capable of some nice bucks.

If I were in your shoes, I would just concentrate on shooting mature bucks and whatever does you need and leave it at that. enjoy being in the woods.

10-4

I'm not sure why you guys think it's photo shopped....lol

Anyway, here is a game cam pic of him a couple weeks before he was shot. I know you can't read the tag number...but it is obvious that it is the same deer.



And just so everyone is clear, this deer was not a pen-reared buck. He was a 100% wild, native buck that was captured and tagged as a yearling for the purpose of the study Dr. Kroll did.

Think what you wish.

again where is the paper....... what are you traking with the does?????? or is she just tagged for the heck of it

If these deer are just know getting shot the one here and on green screen... would mean this particular study of the above deer isn't completed yet...meaning its only yesr 5 or four so far probably.

But he his know for conducting the same type studies all over.... consistantly rebuttaling the kerr study that hasn't been able to be replicated

Yes, myself and several others have posted it. It's easy to find, just Google it up. The Wildlife Biologists at TP&W do NOT believe that "once a spike always a spike", that is not their position. As you mentioned above, a 1 1/2 yr old spike will always be genetically inferior to a 1 1/2 yr old 6 pt. It's been proven time & again. Of course other factors come into play, but GENETICS matters more than anything. I've never managed a HF place, but I have been a part of managing several large LF properties in South Texas & we shoot all spikes (not nubbin bucks). All deer have year round access to the same food & water, and the doe numbers are put in check before any buck culling begins. If he's at least a 4 pointer at 1 1/2 yrs he gets a pass that time to start. Anything less & he gets culled. I have always been a believer in what the TP&W biologists research has proven, I've talked to them in person & I've seen it work in real life. Not all young bucks are trophy buck material, just like not all young men are porn star material. Genetics genetics! This topic goes round & round like several others & people are gonna believe what they wanna believe in the end.....

I found a copy of the paper online. Here is the link:

http://www.deertv.tv/deerchannel/articles/antlerdevelopment.pdf

SingleShot85, I do not have any information on the other deer in the picture.

Bobo, the study was "actively" conducted for 8 years from 1999 to 2007. I'm assuming this buck was one of the last captured and tagged as a yearling (presumably in 2007).