No whitetail deer on this planet is "strong" enough to have a severe illness his first year of life and still grow a large rack....so your above statement is pure BS.

This has NOTHING to do with which deer is "stronger". It has everything to do with what kind of crappy luck each of those deer had.

Very simple example:

You have twin bucks from the same doe. Both have excellent genetics....but one gets sick, and has a rough time getting over his illness....thereby preventing him from getting as much quality nutrition as his twin brother (because he has to combat his poor health at the same time he's growing antlers). This results in the healthy twin growing an 8 point rack at 1.5 and the sickly buck growing a spike rack. Both bucks have the exact same genetics (same mother and same father)....but you shoot the spike because he's "inferior"....not knowing they are twins. End result....the healthy twin grows into a 200" buck at age 5.5 and the other twin is long gone.

In this situation....if you would have passed the spike, then he would have more than likely overcome his health issues, and caught up to his brother the next year. Then in the end you would have had TWO whopper bucks instead of ONE.

Somebody please tell me why this is so hard to understand!!

So if you starve a spike yearling and starve a 10 point yearling and then give them all the feed the want the rest of their lives they will both grow up to be the same? Interesting.
So you can take any buck and give them the best nutrition and not worry about genetics and they will grow up to be monsters, every single one of them? Just where on a feed label is genetics included then since nutrition takes top billing? If nutrtion is more important then you have to be able to inject or they have to be able to injest it one point. Interesting.
If nutrition is more important, then why do some bucks grow tremendous sets of antlers in drought years on native vegetation and other bucks don't even make a decent 8 point rack on the same habitat and living in the same batchelor group?

When I said that....I assumed we were talking about real-world examples in a RANCH ENVIRONMENT....not a pen.

And you would be wrong in your assumption that poor mothers, sick fawns, snake bites, etc.... do not happen frequently. Sh*t happens to fawns all the time.....and fawns are MUCH more sensitive to all those factors than older deer. Just as a baby human is much more sensitive to the common cold or the flu.

I'm all for having a friendly debate, but I am not going to continue to argue with you, if you insist on not reading/comprehending my posts.

Please find a quote where I said that nutrition is more important than genetics....

You won't find one, because I never said that!!! OBVIOUSLY good genetics are required to grow a trophy buck....that is a no-brainer!!

And where the heck did you get this from???

"So if you starve a spike yearling and starve a 10 point yearling and then give them all the feed the want the rest of their lives they will both grow up to be the same?"

If the two bucks in question are identical twin brothers, then yes....they will both grow similar size racks at maturity, if they have ideal living conditions and nutrition the rest of their life. It is documented over and over and over again with pen deer....

This is getting a little ridiculous.

I would not be wrong in my assumption that these deer are the minorities, and given that the other factors on your ranch are being addresses by proper management, the spike is inferior...by your own admission.

So you would rather take a chance on a deer that under the same circumstance with same mother and nutrititon was sick? Why was he sick and not the other one? Same genetics, same feed and same mother to pass on ways of survival? I shoot the spike cause he was weaker and not as healthy for what ever reason in a herd with all the rest of the yearling being healthy. One thing I will tell you IMO is that no doe will every produce twin bucks that grow up to look exactly the same. As you said once before to many variables. IME experience with watching spike grow in various programs is that the vast majority never do catch up. They will normally have a rack of uneven point coutns...7 or 9. IME with a herd that I did not kill any spikes for the first 5 yrs with optimum nutriton year round I then decided to kill all spikes for the next 5 yrs to compare herd data. A very interesting statistic popped up the first year when killing spikes. The average dressed weight of the spikes was less than the average dressed weight of their yearling doe sisters by 2 lbs. This was also the same on a herd in another seperate pasture that had only been managed for 2 yrs. Both sexes had the same genetics and the same nutrtion. Bucks should be heavier at that age than does. This was not a handfull of spikes or yearling does either but a boat load of them. My reasoning for going to killing all spikes was a population issue. I had a population full of 1, 2 and 3 yr old bucks that was more bucks than I wanted to carry in all age classes combined. It shed some light that I have now taken to heart and manage by. Will it work for everyone? Probably not. Not every herd is the same. Some mature early in life with great point counts and some take longer to mature and show there potential. This herd was the later but I needed to kill/cull some bucks and it was the easiest way to get numbers under control.

Eland if you got a herd with unhealthy deer in you need to kill all those northern genetics out and get back to pure Texas deer.

If you have pictorial proof of twin bucks verified by DNA where one was a spike and one was a 10 point yearling and both grew up to look and have similar antler growth at maturity I would love to see it. Cause I have not.
I am just stating things you said in your posts. How I read them and how you want me to are two different things it seems. I am old, half Polish and slow so you might have to spell it out a little better for me.

Haha....duly noted

awesome

LOL!! Well I guess you've beaten me then....because I do not have photos to prove it.

The twin example was mainly for argument's sake....so people could understand what I meant about two deer with similar long-term potential not looking the same as yearlings. One looks like crap as a yearling and one looks great....but BOTH will turn into trophies at maturity, if given the chance.

is it wrong that i feel that both sides are correct?

Eland you losing quickly, you need to invite Amos back to help you out...since has the real historical data of his own success and failures to back his case. Even he will bow in respect to stx historical data as Stx does to his.

Neither are changing genetics-

Marko manages more via his does then bucks, after all I bet 60% of the deer taken on his place are more Corp. Type management deer 130-150(and I could be very wrong).


Stx only wants to feed his top 40-60% of his buck herd for each age class.. after all he is really only interest in those. Does he lose possibley a future 190" to harvesting spikes ....sure but he is willing to take that risk.

Most of both of their success really comes from every thing they due before shooting or not shooting spikes...but then you should know that already

No...not really.

In fact, I would say that stxranchman and I pretty much agree whole-heartedly on culling methods and management. The only real difference is that he believes it should take place at age 1.5 and beyond.....and I believe it should take place at age 2.5 and beyond.

That's mainly what I've been saying this whole time....and Marko summed it up best when he said....

By the way....this thread is the most fun I've had all day!!

Does that mean I'm boring??

Na you just haven't learn to agrue with a wise old German yet.

I am on both sides because on the 10,000acres LF i manage i wouldnt shoot spike due to there is no issue with CC or structure. But on the 800 acre HF place i would consider harvesting spikes in order to maintain CC, ratio and structure. With large fawn crops it can be necessary to harvest from the 1.5 yr old age class so as not to over harvest other classes and in that situation i would rather harevest a 1.5 yr old spike rather than a 1.5 yr old with branched antlers.

Only if you slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

i have only been at it for 5 yrs so i try to stay open minded and learn from everyone elses mistakes and successes

You know better than to argue with me. I live at a Holiday Inn Express and the bus is leaving now Well that is what the guy in the funny hat said the place was they have a "special" seat just for me

We do not ever call it mistakes but "experience" vast year of experience...

the word mistake implies having the wrong answer however in my experience there rarely is a completely wrong answer just situations where better answers are available

so yes experience is a much better word to use