Way too much thought and effort into what is nothing more than a past time activity. Applying common sense to good observations goes a long way.

Besides, isn't the primary goal to provide a meal or is it to grow antlers? No question, what this sport needs most these days are more people who are willing to say "just shoot the %$^& deer and eat it." After all, how stupid would the casual fisherman be if he/she made some of the comments that we do about the genetics in growing white bass?

Cull = anything I dont want on my property

but maybe I'm too simplistic

Or better yet, anything that I can legally shoot and eat.

Pretty sure you aren't culling at that point.

Ok then why did you add your two cents then?

Appling common sense isn't a defined plan, especially if your common sense is wrong when you relate it to deer management...in which you are since your shooting all the spikes you see per your own words with out any herd numbers, or cc, or age class break down and then state your herd has genetic limitations,

Common sense should tell you that if your going to implement a plan, you should at least define what you have or have not, can and can not support first

A thread about what is a cull...referes to being a land steward and manager. Any deer management plan starts with Quality deer program and with increased horn growth turns in to Trophy deer plan.. hind sight you cant have a TD plan with out a healthy herd.

Im sorry you now feel being a land steward is waste of time, good luck with your hunting this year

Definitely depends where you're at, what kind of year it is like dry or average or above average, long term goals, etc. I'd say it's definitely not an easily answered question. Too many people just want to kill spikes, and I know people that have raised spikes, first year true spikes, into some incredible animals. I think that's only true if it's a mature spike, with more age, and clearly defined, larger and more massive spikes. Very interesting topic though. Isn't it true the genetic makeup comes from the does side as well? Does anyone know for sure?

I knew when I brought this topic up it was a can of worms..but basically, I agree w/So. Tx Ranchman..I have had about the same
experience w/ranches where we would see 15 or more large spikes on a 2500 acre ranch high fenced...No active culling in progress
and a lot of old barren does...and the State telling them to take
35 to 45 does off the place..and them taking maybe 10 if that..We
finally killed the spikes and thinned the older barren does down
and he got a 26 point buck that scored 226 that yr...The Kerrville State Unit has fed spikes in pens with other bucks and
kept them separated..Irregardless of all of you guys theories, they never make the deer that the bucks that come with forked horns their first full yr. do...And the did this for years ..not
just one ort two seasons...ONE may think GREED plays some part in
some folks thoughts..I have had ranchers that absolutely never want a doe killed, irregardless of how overstocked their property
becomes...Good Hunting...You Guys keep writing..Don

I'm gonna sit this one out and just eat my

Everyone has different ideas on what they call a cull for their place. All the replies have made this quite interesting and entertaining.

I can tell you that we fenced our place we caught only two does and one buck. That buck had no browtines. Somehow, a buck has showed up on our place that is a fairly nice 10 point. But it doesn't matter because hardly any of them are outside of 13" inside spread. Probably because of too much competition with exotics. I'm not too concerned with selling whitetail hunts so it doesn't really matter too much. And its way too expensive to bring in new genetics to change it and probably not worth it unless we took out 70% of the exotics we currently have.

Kerr study equals by line breeding a yealing spike to his off spring and its offspring that as a percentage that offspring it will have a lower bc score at maturity then the breeder multi pt yearlings when he line breeds is offspring and their offspring.

Why they didn't cross breed the does between the two And compare offspring I have no idea.

From what I have seen here some of the bucks that have spikes the first year depends a lot on, when they were born, how much milk the doe had and was she taken out before the buck was weaned. Also as for managing deer. A lot depends on if you are managing for really large deer or for a lot of middle of the road deer. A lot of places that advertise hunts deal more in volume than in 150" deer. I don't know which would make them more money. I know for a fact that many years ago a friend and I had a hunting business in Kerrville. We had quite a few places contracted where we could take people hunting for Whitetail. A few years prior to this the Y.O. Ranch had hired a biologist that told them they needed to get rid of X amount of does which they did. 3 years later during the whitetail season they had a hard time finding deer for their hunters. Back then their selling point was that you were guaranteed an 8 point buck. They started contracting with us to take some of their hunters so they could get their deer. They worked more on quantity than quality back in those days. From an outfitters standpoint do you do better taking a lot of average deer or just a few so called trophies?

I reckon every buck that gets shot is a cull. You just culled him from the herd when you pulled the trigger.

By the numbers, it makes more sense not to shoot spikes than to shoot them if you are trying to have the most possible big deer at maturity. Some people will never understand the math of it. Some people just need something to shoot every year and only feel comfortable managing when they are counting to 2.

You can have a great deer herd shooting spikes. It's in SPITE of shooting spikes though, not BECAUSE of it.

Can you elaborate? What age class do you start "culling" at?

Thank you Marko!! That's what I was trying to explain, and your last sentence hits the nail on the head.

So there you have it fellas....two of the most successful deer managers in the country, Jack Brittingham (owner of Briar Lakes Ranch and Rancho Encantado) and the Barrett family (owners of Las Raices Ranch).....neither of whom advocate the shooting of yearling bucks as "culls". These guys have produced some of the biggest deer in the state.

Combine this with Dr. James Kroll's study, which does not advocate yearling spike "culling" either....and you've got more than enough to convince me that it's not the best management strategy.

If you're on the spike shooting bandwagon, you might want to think about it using LOGIC and COMMON SENSE.....instead of the outdated information preached by TPWD and the Kerr WMA study.

Still won't change my mind though. Sorry. I will stick with my own data and logic on this one.

So what is...I am still waiting to hear the other side. When do you start culling, and what do you cull?

Let me really screw this thread up. What if you also have exotics? How do you or can you still manage the whitetail to produce good deer? Is there a formula for the amount of a certain type of exotic than can be raised along side whitetail?

And don't forget why..

Might want to pm him...he floats a bunch between here ans another site

The point that everyone is missing is that two ranches can have completely different goals and plans and both be successful. Neither one would ever change what has worked for them. They both will be extremely happy with their results.

Very true Ranchman. What is bad is that non of the things a person or ranch does will have any results either good or bad for a number of years. It has to be a long term project. People leasing for hunting probably don't have the time, resources,permission from the landowner, or security of knowing they still have a lease for the number of years it takes to evolve.

Whatever the land owner states is a cull....if they say its a cull, then Ima gonna kill it

My question is why not shoot the spikes as culls???

Granted, on many places, there are more critical aspects that must be addressed first. But say everything else is in line like CC, structure, ratio, etc...

If you are going to be culling, why would you wait until they are 3.5, 4.5 or whatever? Why wouldn't you distribute the culls among the different age groups and take the lower end of each. The spikes should be the lower end of the 1.5 yo's...so they should go.

Where is the great flaw in that logic?

Some prefer to let every buck get a chance to grow into a trophy of a lifetime to improve the overall herd. Some choose to take out the lower end of every age class to improve the overall herd. In the end one is willing to gamble that one of the culls will be the deer they are looking for. The other is willing to gamble on what they can see in the deer they left after culling. No one will ever know that if the same buck of a lifetime was born into both different plans that he would have been a buck that was left in their respective programs after culling or not.

Concur...why on LF its iffy at best...people would be better off in general worry about cc, health and harvest age...and not trying to control genetics. IMO