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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: rifleman]
#3348122
07/04/12 08:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
They both have recessive great, great, great, great grand pappy traits hiding...... Psst...truth be known they all do
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3348134
07/04/12 08:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,661
Southtexas36
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,661 |
Some very good food for thought. Heck I might even jump the fence and argue from the other side for a while just to And in some cases you will have to. I read everything that was posted and just never heard that perspective before, makes good sense. Would it work for me, probably not, but I can see how it would work.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: Southtexas36]
#3348147
07/04/12 09:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
Some very good food for thought. Heck I might even jump the fence and argue from the other side for a while just to And in some cases you will have to. I read everything that was posted and just never heard that perspective before, makes good sense. Would it work for me, probably not, but I can see how it would work. I sometimes beat to the drum of a different drummer. That is why you have to manage each site specifically and not over the internet. But it makes for a fun 4th of July afternoon.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3348157
07/04/12 09:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,711
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,711 |
People forget about the wild card......the doe
She has 50% of the genetic She had a father at one point and if she was my ranch he would not have been a spike he would have been the king of spikes eating out of that rusty old all seasons feeder thrice daily paint flakes in feed keep antler development down
Last edited by txtrophy85; 07/04/12 09:09 PM.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3348370
07/04/12 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,047
Eland Slayer
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,047 |
In the end a person who leaves all spikes will raise trophy deer. A person who culls all spikes will raise trophy deer. What is the difference? The difference to me is how the overall deer herd looks top to bottom. So why does it matter what the overall deer herd "looks like from top to bottom", if the end result for both methods is mature trophy deer?? Dr. Kroll proved in his study that over a period of 8 years, there was absolutely ZERO difference in the average size of mature bucks from each of the two methods. Half of the properties in the study shot all yearling bucks with less than 4 points (spikes and 3 pts). The other half did not shoot any yearling bucks. This was done for 8 years. At the end of the 8 years....the average score of a 5.5 year old buck from each of these methods was in the mid 140's....(ironically the half that did not cull yearlings had a very slightly higher score, by an inch or two). Bottom line is....it did not make a difference.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: Eland Slayer]
#3348384
07/04/12 11:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,612
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,612 |
In the end a person who leaves all spikes will raise trophy deer. A person who culls all spikes will raise trophy deer. What is the difference? The difference to me is how the overall deer herd looks top to bottom. So why does it matter what the overall deer herd "looks like from top to bottom", if the end result for both methods is mature trophy deer?? Dr. Kroll proved in his study that over a period of 8 years, there was absolutely ZERO difference in the average size of mature bucks from each of the two methods. Half of the properties in the study shot all yearling bucks with less than 4 points (spikes and 3 pts). The other half did not shoot any yearling bucks. This was done for 8 years. At the end of the 8 years....the average score of a 5.5 year old buck from each of these methods was in the mid 140's....(ironically the half that did not cull yearlings had a very slightly higher score, by an inch or two). Bottom line is....it did not make a difference. In a nut shell there comes a time that you will have to shoot more bucks to get under CC. You have two options hammer the worse young deer while it's easy or wait until they are old enough to get a better idea what they will be( which is also when the are harder to kill). I'm on the harder to kill side due to I'm way below cc in oklahoma, I'd rather give that deer the option to show me what he has a 3.5 or 4.5... Even then he has to be pretty bad to get shot.... We are strick on hard horn to 5.5 or older
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: Eland Slayer]
#3348546
07/05/12 12:37 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
In the end a person who leaves all spikes will raise trophy deer. A person who culls all spikes will raise trophy deer. What is the difference? The difference to me is how the overall deer herd looks top to bottom. So why does it matter what the overall deer herd "looks like from top to bottom", if the end result for both methods is mature trophy deer?? Dr. Kroll proved in his study that over a period of 8 years, there was absolutely ZERO difference in the average size of mature bucks from each of the two methods. Half of the properties in the study shot all yearling bucks with less than 4 points (spikes and 3 pts). The other half did not shoot any yearling bucks. This was done for 8 years. At the end of the 8 years....the average score of a 5.5 year old buck from each of these methods was in the mid 140's....(ironically the half that did not cull yearlings had a very slightly higher score, by an inch or two). Bottom line is....it did not make a difference. You will have more trophies in your overall herd if you cull earlier on. More trophy class deer breeding more trophy class genetics. Less chances of culls breeding more culls. Would you rather have all your yearlings be 8 point or better or a mixed bag of a lot of spikes and a few fork horns? I prefer them to start life with more points than my culling minimum. Fawns crops will get you in trouble if you are not culling in all age classes. You have 100 bucks and 100 does with a 70% fawn crop. You need to make room for 35 new bucks next year. Do you have 35 mature bucks to kill from your herd or do you keep them and hope to have an off year sometime in the near future to catch up. If you keep them then you are now over CC. I have seen very few ranches that have less deer than what they think they have. They really get hit hard in the pocket book when you get into a drought run like 3 of the last 4 yrs we have had.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3348560
07/05/12 12:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
In the end a person who leaves all spikes will raise trophy deer. A person who culls all spikes will raise trophy deer. What is the difference? The difference to me is how the overall deer herd looks top to bottom. So why does it matter what the overall deer herd "looks like from top to bottom", if the end result for both methods is mature trophy deer?? Dr. Kroll proved in his study that over a period of 8 years, there was absolutely ZERO difference in the average size of mature bucks from each of the two methods. Half of the properties in the study shot all yearling bucks with less than 4 points (spikes and 3 pts). The other half did not shoot any yearling bucks. This was done for 8 years. At the end of the 8 years....the average score of a 5.5 year old buck from each of these methods was in the mid 140's....(ironically the half that did not cull yearlings had a very slightly higher score, by an inch or two). Bottom line is....it did not make a difference. In a nut shell there comes a time that you will have to shoot more bucks to get under CC. You have two options hammer the worse young deer while it's easy or wait until they are old enough to get a better idea what they will be( which is also when the are harder to kill). I'm on the harder to kill side due to I'm way below cc in oklahoma, I'd rather give that deer the option to show me what he has a 3.5 or 4.5... Even then he has to be pretty bad to get shot.... We are strick on hard horn to 5.5 or older If CC is not a concern and your can afford to feed them then keep them all. With culling early I have found that bucks show you what they have earlier in life. The mature sooner like age 5 instead of 7-8 yrs old. Trying to hold that many bucks to the older age classes to see if they will turn into something is an expensive gamble. With feed cost/food plot costs you take a buck to age 7 or 8 and you might not get the money to shoot him that you have invested in him.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3348814
07/05/12 02:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 571
btpatriot
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 571 |
This is what I love about deer management. There is never one right answer there is always multiple right answers. The challenge is to find the answer that everyone involved can agree on and best fits your goals, ability and wallet. Of coarse the most diffecult part is agreeing on the right answer.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3348831
07/05/12 02:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
They both have recessive great, great, great, great grand pappy traits hiding...... Psst...truth be known they all do Of course, why else do get trash thrown in breeder pens on occasion
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: rifleman]
#3348959
07/05/12 03:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,033
338ultra
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,033 |
I shoot every yearling on my place that isn't a main frame 10 point or better with double drop tines and split g-2s.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: rifleman]
#3348996
07/05/12 04:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
They both have recessive great, great, great, great grand pappy traits hiding...... Psst...truth be known they all do Of course, why else do get trash thrown in breeder pens on occasion Pssst....and they usually don't make back into the breeding herd either.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: don k]
#3349007
07/05/12 04:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,359
BenBob
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,359 |
Until I got on a place with the buck-doe ratio that is absolutely correct, the only culling I would do is does. A ratty looking buck is more likely to become a trophy buck than a does is.
Tired, Wired, and Uninspired
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: txtrophy85]
#3349019
07/05/12 04:26 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
People forget about the wild card......the doe
She has 50% of the genetic Heck James Kroll now thinks she is as much as 70% of the genetics.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: 338ultra]
#3349030
07/05/12 04:38 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,053
NDN98
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,053 |
I shoot every yearling on my place that isn't a main frame 10 point or better with double drop tines and split g-2s.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3349033
07/05/12 04:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
People forget about the wild card......the doe
She has 50% of the genetic Heck James Kroll now thinks she is as much as 70% of the genetics. I say 62.875
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: rifleman]
#3349323
07/05/12 01:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949 |
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: txshntr]
#3349399
07/05/12 02:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 571
btpatriot
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 571 |
To me culling on LF is more of a population control tool however if you cull a certain genetic trait long enough eventually you will see less of that trait. Now you can never completely get rid of that trait but you can decrease its frequency.On LF what I have seen with spikes is that the number of spike yearlings depends on rain fall that year. On drought years we see many more spikes than on years with good rain fall and this is on a large property in South Texas with year round supp feeding, great brush and is below CC. Now on HF culling is a tool for pop as well but you see results from culling specific traits faster due to the fact you have control of deer movements. But no matter how hard you cull you can never completely get rid of the undesirable genetic and if you dont have 200" genetics you will never have a 200" deer.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: txshntr]
#3349430
07/05/12 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,417
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Posts: 22,417 |
We have been very diligent on our lease in East Texas to remove spikes with at least one, unbranched antler, as well as older deer with thick mass antlers and narrow spreads. Of course we do our best to follow the 13-inch for these older bucks.
We continue to see and harvest some excellent deer with wide racks. But the 13-inch restriction has proven to us that despite what TPWD biologists have told us, there are a lot of deer in East Texas that genetic limitations to the width of their racks.
No question, the 13-inch restriction has been a double edge sword. While it has produced some excellent deer, it has also protected many that should have been consumed sooner than later.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: btpatriot]
#3349431
07/05/12 02:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,612
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,612 |
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#3349512
07/05/12 02:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,022
don k
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 15,022 |
I believe certain deer need to be removed from the herd. Spikes like the deer shown in the pictures, deer with out brow tines, deer that have either been hurt or have a genetic disorder that messes up their antlers. What I don't like is the term "Culling". To me "Management" is a term that does a lot better job of saying what you are trying to accomplish. Then a person takes one of these "Management Deer" and he is bad mouthed and told he should have waited another year and seen what the deer would have been like then. And yes I think AR's are a 2 edged sword especially if you are starting with deer that may never be wide enough. I think then if you are serious about management you SSS.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: don k]
#3349523
07/05/12 03:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I call like to call them genetically challenged deer. Once CC is reached something has to be removed to make room for the new crop each year. Each ranch or lease has to make its own decisions and goals to maintain that. That is what makes Texas hunting so good since you have so much private property to do as you choose.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: don k]
#3349553
07/05/12 03:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949 |
IMO, culling is the taking of the deer like Don described. Spikes, no brow tines, mature 6 pointers, etc.
Management deer are the ones that are taking that are on the lower quality level of each age class, like a 5 yo eight pointer. Or I have seen some ranches that have implemented a minimum score on each age class. Any deer that falls below that level would be a management deer. Typically, the ones that would be classified as a cull would also fall below that level too.
The difference between the two is very vague, but the intent is the same.
I would also say that culling on most leases does not have a great impact. There are too many other factors that are ignored and many folks use the term "cull" as an excuse to shoot a deer. Without a complete management plan, only minimal effects will be seen, if any.
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: stxranchman]
#3349556
07/05/12 03:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949
txshntr
T-Rex Arms
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T-Rex Arms
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35,949 |
I call like to call them genetically challenged deer. Once CC is reached something has to be removed to make room for the new crop each year. Each ranch or lease has to make its own decisions and goals to maintain that. That is what makes Texas hunting so good since you have so much private property to do as you choose. How PC of you... Guess that means I am not short, I am vertically challenged
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Re: Culls.....Exactly what do you think a Cull is?
[Re: txshntr]
#3349566
07/05/12 03:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
I call like to call them genetically challenged deer. Once CC is reached something has to be removed to make room for the new crop each year. Each ranch or lease has to make its own decisions and goals to maintain that. That is what makes Texas hunting so good since you have so much private property to do as you choose. How PC of you... Guess that means I am not short, I am vertically challenged Challenged? Why yes you are, in MANY more ways than that one.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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