not to hi-jack, but what exactly is "force fetch"?

I think it should only be done when necessary.

What is "it", force fetch?

Yes.

You pinch their ear, or pull their toe and put a stick in their mouth. Here you go;

I don't like to FF. I don't do it unless the pup will not retrieve.

Is that your dog wearing an ecollar?

Once a a dog has been through FF, you should never have to force them to fetch again, at least I have never seen the need to. They fire on the bird everytime, if FF'd correctly.

Why did you ask about the e-collar, Guy?

Are you making a direct and/or necessary correlation between FF & e-collar conditioning?

The correlation I'm making is when you e-collar condition your pup, you take known commands like hear, heel, sit, teach pup to avoid correction by performing command swiftly. Same concept with heel stick. Same concept with FF, pup learns to avoid correction by fetching, and fetching fast.

I was just trying to understand what Bill was trying to say. So help me understand what you are saying. So you are saying some pups you do not take thru FF training, but you e-collar condition them. Then one day on a hunt you send pup on a retrieve, pup trots out for the retrieve, sniffs bird and says no thanks because pup is tired after hunting all morning in 20 degree weather (seen it a million times from dogs that have not been FF’d), so at that point you force the pup to fetch with the collar? Do I have it right?

No. Not true for me, at least. It's the pups that start out with vices and/or are dull, that I FF. They almost always also need the e-collar. If pup has strong drive, natural return to hand, tractability, I don't FF. I e-collar train more than I FF, but then again, I use the e-collar as a communication tool, not just for correction or negative stimulation. (ie - tone to get pup to look at me to take a cast.)

Only once had one of my dogs flat out refuse on a hunt... last day of the season, big water, white caps, temps in the teens, wind, no sun. Dog attempted 3 x's, turned around and came back. Sent another dog - same results. We didn't force either dog to go on the retrieve - took the boat instead, since it was end of day and time to go. Turns out both dogs were getting hypothermic. I'm glad the dogs called it quits or they'd have died.

Contrary to popular belief, I've seen plenty of FF'd dogs refuse a retrieve (or at least their owners told me the dog had been FF'd.) Obviously, the FF didn't accomplish all it should have or the dog would not have been brought to me for troubleshooting.

Also seen plenty of FF'd dogs washed out or shut down. In rehab, I could see why those particular dogs, given their temperaments were not good FF candidates.

These are key reasons I don't automatically FF.

I think it should only be done when necessary.