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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: huntandfish]
#2733892
11/09/11 02:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445
BOONER
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445 |
I will almost guarntee that most GW's will use common sence in the situations that most are describing. They know what the law is for and will enforce accordingly. If you shoot a 4 yr old with a 12" spread I think most would give a warning.A 2 yr old maybe not. I think AR's are great for most Tx counties, but they are not perfect.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: BOONER]
#2733908
11/09/11 02:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
the law is supposedly for establishing a healthy of a herd... spread & health in general are not related.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: huntandfish]
#2734067
11/09/11 03:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 183
Bannon
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 183 |
Tyler Co. ....Home of the perpetual tall narrow racks. Beautiful, mature, trophies...that can't be shot! Spreading their genes in perpetuity. JUNK SCIENCE! Well to do, Elitist sportsmen at work. I HATE ARs..always will. Politics, politics, politics. It's funny that the folks who have the money can sit on the sideline and say, " if you don't like them, hunt some where else." Well BOSCO BOB, how would you like someone telling you what your "trophy" is???? Management my (#&@_*&_^_)&_)&%*%!
"There is a ballistic solution to most problems"
NRA Endowment Life Member Gulf Coast Friends of NRA Charter Member TSRA Member Bay Area Shooting Club Charter Member
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: huntandfish]
#2734238
11/09/11 03:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,261
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,261 |
The ar law has done wonders with the deer we have! Before ar a 100 inch deer was big! Its not perfect, but it keeps people from shooting anything with horns, as they did before! The impact has also been very positive in the area where I hunt in Houston County. However, I believe it will be several more years before we begin to see the negative impact of protecting tall, narrow-racked bucks. It's just a matter of common sense when you consider there is virtually no data being collected on them at this time, other than what is seen in the Managed Lands Program.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: rifleman]
#2734284
11/09/11 04:14 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,258
Letsgo
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,258 |
I love ARs. They're not perfect but they're better than the alternative.
the alternative worked for many, many, many years I completely disagree - no bucks were ever allowed to get past 2.5 y/o in central texas. I am now seeing deer hit 4.5 and even 5.5. There is NO way this would happen before ARs. I understand the tall rack issue even though I have not seen the problem after 6 years with AR's in Coryell county. Before AR's the only option I had to take a mature buck was to either HF my ranch or go pay for a hunt on a HF place - both very frustrating options. I still think the underlining problem is most hunters don't feel successfully unless they have a buck on the ground. I can't tell you the number of times I have talked with "meat hunters" that would pass on 15 does to take a little 6 pt - just don't get it but luckily we now have AR's to fix the problem. I guess meat hunters are now actually forced to be meat hunters.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Letsgo]
#2734298
11/09/11 04:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
In our area there has always been nice deer around.. I would be willing to say the common use of cameras has done more than the actual law.. Folks tend to be more selective when they actually have knowledge of what's in their area.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: rifleman]
#2734317
11/09/11 04:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,258
Letsgo
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,258 |
Unfortunately, most hunters can't govern themselves and hence the need for AR's. I assume they figure they have paid x dollars and thus they will go home with horns regardless of size or potential. The East Texas hunters on here have said over and over that the increase harvest numbers have destroyed their hunting - you would think the hunters in the area would realize the problem and back off of taking the extra does.
My philosophy has always been not to take a buck unless it is a personal best or has some unique quality like a droptine - hell, I can have a great hunt and never pull the trigger. If I don't see this type of buck then I will take does for the meat.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Letsgo]
#2734356
11/09/11 04:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
It doesn't have to be that way for me... I just want to shoot old deer or mgmt deer depending on the place & never had a problem with it. They've always been there, they just haven't always cooperated with my schedule.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: rifleman]
#2734461
11/09/11 05:31 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 42
BuckAm
Light Foot
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Light Foot
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 42 |
We have the problem on our place (low fence) with tall/narrow racks. I agree that what is allowing the deer to mature is also allowing the same bad genetics back in the herd. The only solution I see would be to have A/R on alternate or every 3rd years to help eliminate these type of racks. It's not a great solution, but it does not completely eliminate A/R either.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: BuckAm]
#2734489
11/09/11 05:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 320
ShaneR21
OP
Bird Dog
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OP
Bird Dog
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 320 |
AR does allow for the deer to mature. It restricts those who shoot anything that walks just to say they shot something. It hurts those who are trying to manage the herd and get rid of bad genetics. I hunted this evening and ended up seeing 15 doe and 1 tall, narrow buck. Like I said on my original post, we have some great bucks that are young and when they mature they will be great bucks to shoot. I guess we really won't know the affects of AR for another few years. Just glad to be able to go out when ever I want and see deer. I can shoot a doe any time I want and will when it cools off enough to let it hang so we can processes it our self.
Shane
It's not a hobby or an obsession. It's a passion, a way of life. It's the way I live my life.
Duck or Bleed
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: ShaneR21]
#2734499
11/09/11 06:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445
BOONER
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445 |
Shane how old was the tall narrow buck. How narrow.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: BOONER]
#2734514
11/09/11 06:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 320
ShaneR21
OP
Bird Dog
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OP
Bird Dog
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 320 |
The one this evening was hard to see because it was right at dark but he looked 3.5, maybe 2.5 and his out side lacked and inch from being to the tip of his alert ears. He was probably 15-16 inches tall, maybe taller. 6 pointer.
Shane
It's not a hobby or an obsession. It's a passion, a way of life. It's the way I live my life.
Duck or Bleed
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: ShaneR21]
#2734518
11/09/11 06:41 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445
BOONER
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,445 |
Heck if he was that young he needs to grow. Tall narrow racks are not inferior. Everyone gets so worried about spreads but most mature deer are gonna make 13"s. But I think if you have a truly mature deer that doesnt ,then most GW's will give you a warning.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Bannon]
#2734523
11/09/11 07:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451
Seadog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451 |
Tyler Co. ....Home of the perpetual tall narrow racks. Beautiful, mature, trophies...that can't be shot! Spreading their genes in perpetuity. JUNK SCIENCE! Well to do, Elitist sportsmen at work. I HATE ARs..always will. Politics, politics, politics. It's funny that the folks who have the money can sit on the sideline and say, " if you don't like them, hunt some where else." Well BOSCO BOB, how would you like someone telling you what your "trophy" is???? Management my (#&@_*&_^_)&_)&%*%! I have seen 2 bucks about 4.5 to 5.5 years old with 12 - 12.5in spread during bow season in Tyler County!!! We have been AR for 3 years now!!! Before AR's we had a 2-buck, 2-doe limit and I believe that they could have saved a lot of younger bucks just by lowering the buck limit to 1!!! This year so far I'm seeing less deer than the past 3 years!!!
I support Cap and Trade - Cap our spending and Trade Obama
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: ShaneR21]
#2736512
11/09/11 10:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366
Curly
Overrated
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Overrated
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 20,366 |
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Seadog]
#2736518
11/09/11 10:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
Tyler Co. ....Home of the perpetual tall narrow racks. Beautiful, mature, trophies...that can't be shot! Spreading their genes in perpetuity. JUNK SCIENCE! Well to do, Elitist sportsmen at work. I HATE ARs..always will. Politics, politics, politics. It's funny that the folks who have the money can sit on the sideline and say, " if you don't like them, hunt some where else." Well BOSCO BOB, how would you like someone telling you what your "trophy" is???? Management my (#&@_*&_^_)&_)&%*%! I have seen 2 bucks about 4.5 to 5.5 years old with 12 - 12.5in spread during bow season in Tyler County!!! We have been AR for 3 years now!!! Before AR's we had a 2-buck, 2-doe limit and I believe that they could have saved a lot of younger bucks just by lowering the buck limit to 1!!! This year so far I'm seeing less deer than the past 3 years!!! FYI... a 16" wide 11pt was shot just off y'alls border Sat morning. widest deer shot in 15yrs according to the records.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: rifleman]
#2738573
11/10/11 06:45 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451
Seadog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451 |
Tyler Co. ....Home of the perpetual tall narrow racks. Beautiful, mature, trophies...that can't be shot! Spreading their genes in perpetuity. JUNK SCIENCE! Well to do, Elitist sportsmen at work. I HATE ARs..always will. Politics, politics, politics. It's funny that the folks who have the money can sit on the sideline and say, " if you don't like them, hunt some where else." Well BOSCO BOB, how would you like someone telling you what your "trophy" is???? Management my (#&@_*&_^_)&_)&%*%! I have seen 2 bucks about 4.5 to 5.5 years old with 12 - 12.5in spread during bow season in Tyler County!!! We have been AR for 3 years now!!! Before AR's we had a 2-buck, 2-doe limit and I believe that they could have saved a lot of younger bucks just by lowering the buck limit to 1!!! This year so far I'm seeing less deer than the past 3 years!!! FYI... a 16" wide 11pt was shot just off y'alls border Sat morning. widest deer shot in 15yrs according to the records. D@mn, so there was 2 bucks in the County that would make AR's!!! Savage reported last month on the forum a 14 incher killed by car near Woodville!!!
I support Cap and Trade - Cap our spending and Trade Obama
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Seadog]
#2738873
11/10/11 01:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 235
Cavscout1968
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 235 |
I believe in AR's becuase hunters for the most part have proven they can't manage themselves. AR's were put in place to give bucks a chance to mature, why was this needed? Simply put hunters where shooting them at 1 1/2 instead of 3 1/2 years old. Too often in Wisconsin and I'm sure Texas was the same. You'd see some guy at the registration station comlaining how there were no big bucks left any more as he registered his 1 1/2 year old 6 pointer basket rack. And with Texas' bag limit, many would harvest 2 deer at that age, which would crush the herds ability to get mature deer.
Now with that said I also believe in common sense. If you shot a deer at 12 3/4" in a county that is known for nice, but tall narrow racks, you'd think the local GW would and should understand that. I would say if you bring in a 12 1/2" that is very easily recognizable as a mature deer, that should be good to go.
The problem was two fold and instead of tackling the issue with common sense, it was hit with a sledge hammer. The simple solution would have been to restrict the number of antlered deer you could take, along with a county or "zoned" AR in place. If they wanted to really do it right they would hold a few meetings in each "zone" with hunters and local GWs to see what the AR should be and even the bag limit. But with all that said, thats not how our government operates any longer, common sense no longer applies.
US Cavalry, retired Surviving Wisconsin to live in Texas 7 months till no more snow
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Cavscout1968]
#2738930
11/10/11 02:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 577
millerliteliker
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 577 |
I live in East Texas and hunt on property close to home (Gregg and Rusk Counties). I think AR has helped the overall age structure of the buck population.
I also have two leases in non AR counties - Baylor and Sterling. It is getting harder and harder to find a nice, mature buck in Baylor County. Go to Seymour and take at look at the carnage brought in every night to Baco's meat processor. You will see tons of 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks brought in that had no business being shot. If you want meat, there are tons of does in Baylor County that would have done just fine.
I was talking to a TPWD biologist the other day and he predicted that AR is going to become state wide in just a few years. He said that as far as the TPWD is concerned, it has been a success in the counties that it was implemented in.
I think that with the drought we will see increased pressure to implement these measures state wide. I also think we will see our bag limits decreased next year and maybe beyond. The deer population took a terrible hit this year (almost nil fawn survival) so we had all better get ready for decreasing bag limits and maybe even an increase in the spread of AR to more counties if not the entire state.
Mathews Z7 Bow for Whitetail and Hogs Remington R-15 .223 REM for predators I also like to "hunt" sporting clays with my Benelli SuperSport!
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Cavscout1968]
#2739000
11/10/11 02:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
Rustler
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225 |
I believe in AR's becuase hunters for the most part have proven they can't manage themselves. AR's were put in place to give bucks a chance to mature, why was this needed? Simply put hunters where shooting them at 1 1/2 instead of 3 1/2 years old. Too often in Wisconsin and I'm sure Texas was the same. You'd see some guy at the registration station comlaining how there were no big bucks left any more as he registered his 1 1/2 year old 6 pointer basket rack. And with Texas' bag limit, many would harvest 2 deer at that age, which would crush the herds ability to get mature deer.
Now with that said I also believe in common sense. If you shot a deer at 12 3/4" in a county that is known for nice, but tall narrow racks, you'd think the local GW would and should understand that. I would say if you bring in a 12 1/2" that is very easily recognizable as a mature deer, that should be good to go.
The problem was two fold and instead of tackling the issue with common sense, it was hit with a sledge hammer. The simple solution would have been to restrict the number of antlered deer you could take, along with a county or "zoned" AR in place. If they wanted to really do it right they would hold a few meetings in each "zone" with hunters and local GWs to see what the AR should be and even the bag limit. But with all that said, thats not how our government operates any longer, common sense no longer applies. TPWD did hold public meetings in the areas AR's were being considered. They also held both closed door and public meetings before AR's were instituted in the original 6 counties. Several alternatives were put on the table thousands of pictures and real age data were presented all tossed without even half arsed consideration. I attended many of these meetings, except for the pre AR meetings in the original 6 counties very few opponents ever say a word, that's not because they weren't there. They also asked for public opinions online, TPWD is very good when it comes to interaction with the public. AR's is an avalanche started by a single boulder long ago, there isn't any stopping it once it got started. IMO there does need to be a exit strategy based on something other than severely lacking outdated data and AR's as they're written now. A failed co op horrible data (if you can even call it data) and ego's is what started the boulder rolling.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: BOONER]
#2739080
11/10/11 02:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,200
dawaba
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,200 |
I love ARs. They're not perfect but they're better than the alternative.
x2 X100 Let em grow up!!! Agreed. It's not a perfect system, but it's the most practical one. Certainly, a better way would be to ban the harvest of any buck less than, say, 3.5 yrs old. However, most hunters couldn't judge a 2.5 from a 5.5 year old buck. Thus, antler width, while imperfect, is probably the best way to acheive a more mature deer herd. Growing up in my beloved East Texas, seeing ANY hard-antlered deer was a real happening, and that buck would be shot immediately no matter its age. Nowadays, Joe Nimrod is starting to realize that holding out for a mature buck while shooting the does for meat provides the best hunting experience and improves the age structure of the deer herd in general. The AR rule is perhaps most responsible for this trend. Perfect? No. Working? Absolutely.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple.....and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: dawaba]
#2739117
11/10/11 03:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451
Seadog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,451 |
The problem I see in Tyler County is people shooting 2 does and with the genetics of tall narrow racks not as many bucks killed, (except young spikes of course), so you end up with more older mature bucks that you can't kill than does you can!!! The best solution would have been just to reduce the buck limit to 1 instead of the original 2 that it was prior to AR's!!! But then again, that would make too much sense!!!
I support Cap and Trade - Cap our spending and Trade Obama
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: dawaba]
#2739146
11/10/11 03:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,297
JDShellnut
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,297 |
What makes y'all think a GW can tell a 3 1/2 yo from a 5 1/2 yo and be able to tell you it is OK to kill a deer? They are well educated cops, not whitetail biologist. I don't see any GW in his right mind telling you it is OK to do something illegal.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: JDShellnut]
#2739189
11/10/11 03:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 844
Jim Davis
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 844 |
Because it's ultimately at his discretion whether he writes the ticket for it.
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Re: AR rant... Sorry
[Re: Jim Davis]
#2739241
11/10/11 03:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
How many inches old does a doe have to be to keep tha age structure they way TPWD wants it? (vs. how mother nature wants it)
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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