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Apr 19th, 2025
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 Scared to shoot???
#268321
12/03/07 10:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204
bankbeater
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204 |
For those of you that hunt in an AR county, are you scared to shoot? I will be the 1st to admit that I am.
We have 5 guys on our lease and I am the only one that has taken a deer, a doe the 2nd weekend.
I had a chance yesterday to take my personal best buck, but decided to pass because I have not been blessed with eagle eyes and at 100 yards couldn't tell you the difference between a 13 inch spread and a 20 inch spread. I got this particular buck to within 40 yards and was easily able to count 10 points and tell that he was outside his ears. At that point, I no longer had a shot and just felt fortunate enough to have witnessed the sighting.
Several of the guys that I hunt with have seen what they thought were spikes but did not pull the trigger in fear of a forkhorn.
We are all law abiding hunters and I am frustrated at the fact that, in the past, I would not have hesitated and would have meat in the freezer, but, IMO, TPWD is playing God, and my family may not enjoy the table fare that we have had in the past.
I hate the restrictions and pray that I may be fortunate enough to hunt in a non-AR county next year so that my family and I can enjoy the game that we have enjoyed for the last 20+ years.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268322
12/03/07 10:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,597
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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i used to get that way with cull bucks, i would be so scared i'd shoot something that wasn't a cull and be kicked off the ranch. the more you hunt the more comfortable you'll be
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: txtrophy85]
#268323
12/03/07 10:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
You need to send that to TPWD.
(tounge in cheek)
Remember this is TPWD goal #2 about "increased hunter opportunity".
It's Not about success. (TIC)
But did you EVEN have an "opportunity" for success ??
Doesn't sound like it.
Can't eat "opportunity".
Sorry to here it.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change?  TPWD
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: PHishTX]
#268324
12/03/07 11:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 912
fishdog
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 912 |
Where were your binoculars? If your worried about not being able to tell the difference you should definatly have binoculars. If you just want meat in the freezer shoot a doe. The science behind antler restrictions is pretty solid, it has helped out in other states and it appears to be working in Texas.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268325
12/03/07 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,868
atascosa_red
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,868 |
On any game-managed ranch everyone has the same problem. You have to know what you are fixin to shoot. Makes hunting a little harder but you will get used to it in time. I rather like the fact that alot of deer get away because of the lack of knowledge of other hunters. More for me!!
IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!! REVOLT!! REVOLT!! REVOLTING!! REVOLTING!!
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: PHishTX]
#268326
12/03/07 11:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,784
passthru
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,784 |
I hunted in an AR county the last two years and had no problem identifying and shooting legal bucks. Then again I have hunted for the older better scoring deer for a few years now. In Texas, at the ears is 13". Anything beyond that is good. In Mo. it is different, 15" is at the ears so it changes with the larger deer. Study the TPWD pictures and some mounts and it should help. The ears are about 5 inches and that can help in judging. Get some good 8x binoculars and use them. A rifle scope doesn't do the same as you can be too anxious to shoot and depth perception is reduced with one eyed sight. It is a little tougher but by the third year you should see more nicer bucks. Good luck.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: passthru]
#268327
12/04/07 12:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204
bankbeater
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204 |
My binos were on my eyes and looking right at him!!
My personal best, that I have a shoulder mount of, and am looking at right now, is 14 3/4 inches wide and is barely outside of his ears.
I have hunted for over 20 years and anybody that can tell me how wide a rack is or what the score is at over 100 yards is full of horse hockey!
I watch the Outdoor Channel and VS daily and most of the monsters that they kill, they have to count the points and evaluate the spread while they are standing over them.
I wish I had the money to spend on a lease where I could not only see deer on a regular basis, but be able to pick and choose what I wanted to shoot.
I just feel fortunate to see a deer on my lease, I think I should be able to shoot the big 4 point that I have seen several times on my lease thats body size is allmost twice that of any other buck I've seen.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268328
12/04/07 12:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Colonel Angus
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 728 |
Well, what you did and what you feel is only up to you. But if you can't tell 13" from 15" spread at 100 yds. Change your binocs.
Not to brag but i can consistently and within 10 - 20 " measure a deer at over 750 yds. with my Swarovski 10 x 42 El Bino's I can see horns on Bucks past 1500 yards easily.
My single only point is buy the best bino's you can afford and you'll save yourself a fortune in missed opportunities over a lifetime.
d
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268329
12/04/07 12:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
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Don't let folks kid you, yes, the short term effects are going to look like the AR's are working.
Wait until they have been in effect for say 10 years.
A lot of folks are touting them, but those same folks are shooting the first LEGAL deer they see, with the exception of those animals that have an unbranched antler on one side, because they don't want to waste their tag.
Also, because deer on low fenced properties can not be managed like deer on high fenced areas.
This is especially true when no one, including the TP&W Biologists have an ACTUAL POPULATION count, nor do they have actual numbers on what type deer are in the herd in any given area.
Many bucks that will be dying of old age in the AR counties do not have the genetics to make the 13 inches, and they are the ones being left to do the breeding.
I could be wrong, but I think many places are going to see a build up of larger bucks during the first 3 to 5 years and then it is going to noswe dive. JMO.
I don't blame you for not shooting, and there is something wrong when a person pays for their hunting license, but because of the wants and desires of some people and TP&W's desire to make Texas the GO TO state for Trophy Deer, can't shoot what may well be the only deer they see in a season.
JMO.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: fishdog]
#268330
12/04/07 12:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220 |
OK I feel like going a round or two, Quote:
fishdog wrote....The science behind antler restrictions is pretty solid, it has helped out in other states and it appears to be working in Texas.
Quote:
Quote:
from: Mitch Lockwood, (TPWD WTD program director).....Several states
(Arkansas, Mississippi, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Florida, etc.) have antler restrictions based on number of points. Their regulations are failing horribly, and it's not hard to understand why. The deer biologists in some of those states are presenting data that shows how poorly their antler-point restrictions are working...They have this regulation in an attempt to move more bucks into older age classes. Now, under this rule, which bucks reach maturity? ONLY THE BUCKS THAT DON'T HAVE AT LEAST 3 POINTS ON 1 SIDE are allowed to live to older age classes under their egulation. They are high-grading their buck population. Only the poorest quality bucks are allowed to mature, and they are the ones passing on their genes. Quote:
How is this different than high-grading that allows <13" deer mature and pass on their genes? SO per Mr. Lockwood Quote:
" Only the poorest quality bucks are allowed to mature, and they are the ones passing on their genes.
......Is now the case study for TX deer.......
Solid science my @SS.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: PHishTX]
#268331
12/04/07 01:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 89
TxTwister
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 89 |
Will we see AR removed in 5-10 years or is this an attempt to dissatisfy hunters and reduce overall hunting?
Sunnytime
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: TxTwister]
#268332
12/04/07 01:19 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
THF Celebrity
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One of the statements made by one of the biologist connected to TP&W's White Tail program group, concerned that very subject.
TP&W is monitoring it closely, and I feel safe in saying that if this first little taste of some improvement in the AR areas turns into a downward spiral with more older, but not legal animals in the population due to genetics that do not allow them to reach the magic number 13, the AR's will be dropped and some other new fix will be instituted.
It would be different if all hunters in the AR areas subscribed to the same high ideals that some folks on here proclaim to have, but in reality, in the AR counties every buck that exceeds the 13 inch minimum is shot on sight regardless of its age.
And I also bet a lot of sub 13 inchers are left for the coyotes and the hogs.
Contrary to some peoples beliefs, even at 7000+ members the THF is NOT the conscience of hunters state wide. JMO.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: TxTwister]
#268333
12/04/07 01:21 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204
bankbeater
OP
Woodsman
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OP
Woodsman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 204 |
Phish, I agree with you 110%
The restrictions are total BS in my opinion! We have numerous inferior bucks on our place that are free and clear to spread their genes around the county.
How can I, we, communicate with TPWD to get these restrictions lifted?
I am a die hard fisherman and put a live fish on a measuring board to see how long it is and then put it into the livewell or back into the lake accordingly.
I have spent many hours shooting my rifle, and once I pull the trigger, releasing back into the woods is NOT an option
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268334
12/04/07 01:32 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,597
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,597 |
Quote:
I have hunted for over 20 years and anybody that can tell me how wide a rack is or what the score is at over 100 yards is full of horse hockey!
its pretty easy actually, if you get enough practice. just have to keep your wits about you and do your studying.
a good guide can judge a deers age and B&C score (within 6-8 inches) in about 5 seconds, looking thru binos. but it takes alot of practice, and in most cases, a mistake or two.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: txtrophy85]
#268335
12/04/07 02:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Quote:
its pretty easy actually, if you get enough practice.
There-in, lies the problem. As I have stated before on other threads, many folks are hunting properties where if the see a deer everytime they go out, it is a small miracle.
On a lot of places if a person sees a deer once in two or three trips, they feel damn lucky.
This is like the "Getting Soft Hearted" thread.
When a person is in the situation where they see large numbers of deer every time they go out, they lose sight of the fact that not everyone is in the same boat.
It does not matter if the deer has enough points and mass to make 130 B&C, if he ain't 13 inches he is illegal period.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#268336
12/04/07 02:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 33,597
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 33,597 |
i'm not arguing, but he said that since he's been hunting 20 years and can't do it(judge a deer), then its impossible. read some books on aging deer, this will help alot.
using the ears are usually the best indicator as far as spread goes. try and picture the deer without antlers. if you can and it looks like a doe, then it is immature. a deer older than 2 1/2 will exibit a muscular neck around the rut
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#268337
12/04/07 02:31 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881
Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881 |
Okay, after extensive and heated discussions the last several days this is by all means an interesting subject. I may be able to offer something helpful. Being blessed with a goodly amount of deer on my place and my familys place I have had some problems in evaluating deer. Oh yeah, look at the body, look at the back, look at the head and his snout, look at the horns and what color are they. When all else fails... you read the instructions. I got me a book!!! I'm fair at aging and scoring deer but I want to get better so I got me a book. Its called Observing & Evaluating Whitetails! By Dave Richards and Al Brothers. It will show you every kind of deer, size, weight, age, upsidedown, and everywhich way you can think of. This is only a suggestion if you can't see deer on your place and they are few and far between. My2cents 
 Benny Promise Ranch
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Cool_Hand]
#268338
12/04/07 02:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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Posts: 16,474 |
Yes, there are some good books on the subject, but being able to tell that the 12.5 inch inside spread 8 point buck your looking at is 4.5 or 5.5 years old don't change the fact that he is still illegal, now does it?
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#268339
12/04/07 03:01 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881
Cool_Hand
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,881 |
No, your right. I hate to say this on the forum in front of the guys that are restricted to the 13" rule but I'm thankful we're not there yet in Coleman County
Benny Promise Ranch
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#268340
12/04/07 03:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 912
fishdog
Tracker
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Tracker
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Posts: 912 |
I disagree with the fact that only the poorest quality bucks are allowed to mature. The problem as I see it is in many areas the bucks have the genetic potential, but any legal buck is shot on sight, therefore AR can have a huge impact in those areas. As I recall that is what the basis of Pennsylvania AR's were and there were several studies over large period of time that showed it was working. But there does need to be some sort of out, if a cull needs removed, or if a hunter legitimately mis judges the size of a buck, they shouldnt fear being ticked for a honest mistake. There should also be more put into studying if the deer population in a given area has the potential to support ARs (in some areas the deer just dont get that big and then you would be allowing only geneticlly inferior bucks to reproduce.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: bankbeater]
#268341
12/04/07 03:35 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,090
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 31,090 |
Quote:
I have hunted for over 20 years and anybody that can tell me how wide a rack is or what the score is at over 100 yards is full of horse hockey!
Lets just say i choose to disagree with that statament.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Cool_Hand]
#268342
12/04/07 03:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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Posts: 1,220 |
This really isn't about age!!....(though TPWD wants us to believe it is) i.e. That herd has reached some fictional critical age-distribution problem. yada yada yada More of their mis-representaion, and irresponsible/dishonest management. It is about antlers (and their spread <13"). How old is a 13" deer? Is a 13" deer "mature"? My deer tags don't say anything about mature bucks. My tags don't say anything about age either......just check the box about "spread". And no extra reading should be required.  Hunters that want to manage for mature/trophy deer can read all the books they would like on the subject. Likewise hunters that like sausage can read all the recipes they want, too. But wildlife regulations should not be MADE-UP to favor one side or the other.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: PHishTX]
#268343
12/04/07 04:03 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,090
HWY_MAN
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,090 |
Quote:
This really isn't about age!
Sure it is!
Quote:
It is about antlers (and their spread <13").
yep it sure is.
The only problem is, you can't age a deer by it's spread. It's feel good legislation, that like all feel good legislation, it usually fails.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: PHishTX]
#268344
12/04/07 04:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,258
Letsgo
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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With all the debating about the restrictions, what is the split of land owners and lease people that like/dislike the restrictions? My gut instinct is that lease hunters hate the restrictions while land owners love them.
I love the restrictions as it gives me one last hope of not having to high fence my ranch. It gets very frustrating feeding year round protein and passing on young bucks to only see the neighbor shot one of the 2.5 year old 8/10 points. At least I no longer have to worry about the neighbor bringing 3 or 4 friends over to hunt on his 20 acres and shoot the first buck with horns. I have seen it over and over where a 1.5 year old fork horn was shot when there was does running all over the place.
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Re: Scared to shoot???
[Re: Letsgo]
#268345
12/04/07 04:15 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,090
HWY_MAN
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Posts: 31,090 |
Quote:
My gut instinct is that lease hunters hate the restrictions while land owners love them.
As a landowner i can't argue with that.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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