Alot of information to process and some good things to consider.

Number one thing...need more data

Then have to convince to foreman we need to kill more deer

Then hope everyone can make good judgement calls

Get the TPWD biologist involve for free and let him sell the foreman on the numbers that need to come off after a survey. Trail cameras and videos are you best friend in camp when making buck/doe numbers descisions.

This is a great thread.
Despite all the best intentions the deer just won't cooperate. There are dominant bucks and old does that I just can't seem to get. Jan. game cam pics are always the best.lol

I have seen more deer than ever because of this drought. This may be for several reasons. There are some gnarly old bucks I want to take this year. They can decline quite a bit in a bad year.

There is a ton of information on this. With some more research, I think that this tactic is a viable solution to deer surveys. It will have to be modified to fit our deer herd and terrain, because if we put up cameras every 100 acres...I am going to go broke.

Based on this thread, I have a few more ideas to look at implementing on our ranch.

The biggest obstacle that I see is finding the balance between managing the herd and keeping the lease a "fun family atmosphere." At this point, a 130" is a reasonable and obtainable goal for this lease. I have taken two deer in the last 4 years over 140".

The question for me is "what is the max potential that a healthy, managed herd in this region will produce?" I look at Tye's deer in Eastland County, which are great deer by the way. He seems to have an intense management program, HF, supplementation and food plots, and a firm grasp on what will be shot and what will not. From his post on this thread, they are producing 150" deer with native genetics. On our ranch, is the effort and cost worth an 8-12% increase in average antler growth?

I have always looked at the 3500 acres as a blessing, but in a management setting, it seems that this is a curse. As we lower the population to carrying capacity on our side, it seems we will have a constant influx of deer effecting our herd size.

Guess it is time to sit down with the group and decide what exactly our goals are for the ranch. Then decide how much time and money we are willing to invest and make adjustments to the goals accordingly.

I hear ya. We decided not to feed protein this year to see what will happen. We will reduce our numbers even lower than they are. I don't think we had a huge increase in while feeding protein, but time will tell

txhntr, I think increase on animal size and quality are dependent on what they are when you start. When I started on 4500 acres in the Hill Country the avg. doe weighed 52 lbs dressed weight. After 5 yrs it was up to 72 lbs with number control along with supplementation/food plots. I was told any buck 125 or better was a trophy buck for that area. Bucks were not shot in high numbers the first 2 yrs and only a handfull total. The last 5 yrs I was on the ranch the bucks avg. 152 gross on any buck that was shot as a trophy. Average body weights were up to around mid 140's on bucks. 3rd yr into the management a 159" buck was taken. The last year I was there, 4 bucks over 159 were taken out of 10 bucks shot as a trophy. Avg that year was 154 if I remember right for that group. 9 yrs into the program a 195 B&C was taken. All native genetics. High density numbers can be a curse and a blessing for ranches. By curse I mean it is a long road ahead just keep numbers under control. Blessing is that there can be a very diversified gene pool to start with. With your acreage I would think you fall into the second group with first group right on your heal.
I think one thing you can do is plan a schedule around hunting weekends. Make so many family fun hunt weekends and then some weekends as management hunt weekends. This is only if you want to try to improve the quality of the deer.

I would have to do some figuring, but I would guess our average doe weight to be around 65lbs, usually there are a good number that push close to 80 and the winner of the big doe contest is usually in the 80's. Largest we have taken was 94lbs, but she was an exception. Our average 5yo+ will weigh 140 or better, depending on the time of year. One of the tens I shot was 152lbs. Biggest body deer we have taken was 156lbs.

Most the guys do pretty good with the balance of hunting/fun. With the kids coming up, we usually plan on them all going on the same weekend so they can have a group to run around with. I think that we can make a difference and keep the atmosphere light, but as the deer get bigger it seems people get more protective and complain about certain activities more. We have seen this in the last ten years or so.

Are you on MLD?

Is that weight around average for your area? are does field dress around 80

No, we have talked about it but never persued it.



Talking to the neighbors, it is pretty much average for the area. One of the reasons the average is low is because of the number we shoot. As I said earlier, we kill as many as we can, even the young ones.

Now get this. The funny thing is on that ranch in the post above I talk about, the 1.5 yr old doe that last(7th) year had an average dressed weight of 72 lbs and the average on all doe taken the last year was 77 lbs. I took a 1.5 yr old doe that last year that weighed 94 lbs. Biggest we took the last year was 100 lbs. We also took a lot of young doe since we shot so many. The younger does were getting bigger ever year. We took around 5 doe fawns every year mostly by mistake and they were averaging 55 lbs that last year, so they were bigger than the older doe when we started. One hunter shot a buck fawn in the fog that dressed 64 lbs. Not sure what the deer are doing there 15 yrs later.

The herd i was watchin in east texas did the same thing and from what iv learned this is signs of a healthy herd, our 2.5yr old doe were the largest age group every year, held pretty strong at 3.5 and started droppin after 4.5

One big advantage i think you would have on MLD is that one person can shoot every tag...i know you wouldnt do that but say if your behind on the doe harvest anyone on the lease could pop them when they got the chance and dnt have to worry about gettin stoped at two tags

Well, there is something else we probably should start doing...aging doe.

Never thought about the doe's age/weight and sure wouldn't expect a 1.5 year old doe to weigh that much.

I agree Navas...would be nice if we weren't limited by the tags and a few could go out and harvest the majority. We have been compensating by friends and kids. In our county, each person can shoot 5 doe if they don't take a buck.

There are advantages and disadvantages to MLD. MLD is a longers season so if you like to hunt 5 months it is giving you that with the weapon of your choice. It will get you the tags to manage the numbers. It will help you get you numbers in better shape over time if you stick with it. They will do browse surveys. You will have to do a survey. Keep records on every deer shot. They will need at least 3 yrs of harvest data and survey data. Your landowner would need to be in agreement with it and would need to have a good lease in place and working relationship with them. I have seen several guys build a ranch up with MLD only to loose it when someone offered more money or the owner wanted more money since the ranch was producing better or do his own outfitting of hunts. It can work for you or against you. Also depends on your TPWD biologist as to what level you will enter under. You can also get the antlerless deer/spike control permit that a allows you to get the permits to take off the extra deer. Does nothing with your buck hunting though if you don't shoot spikes.

Our ranch manager is a good guy, but it still all comes down to money. We have had some issues in that regard. The ranch puts very little back into the hunting. All the improvements have been done by the hunters. We have a walk-in cooler, running water, electricity, slabs, winches, cleaning sinks, etc. Basically we have made great improvements to the camp area and the deer herd. Every year I put together a video compilation of the deer from that year and give it to the ranch. The improvements in both the camp and the deer have resulted in increases in price.

Before we agreed to go MLD and put more money or a great deal of effort in the ranch, we would have to discuss longer terms on the lease.

Thats a good idea...and like stx said look up the different levels and see what would be better to fit yall...each level has its own requirements and sometimes can be met with not to much cost..gettin up into the higher levels can really put a hole in your wallet though....since yall are harvesting around 15 bucks every year it may not even be nessisary to get on MLD...just look into gettin lamps tags for Antlerless deer....MUCH eaiser to get

The ranch we hunt Mule Deer on in West Texas wanted to go MLD. We looked at it and said no. Longer hunting season and could hunt the rut, but it would have meant more hunters on the lease and higher pricing to everyone on it over time. Don't mind paying more but not more hunters. Ranch did nothing to improve the ranch or the management of it also. We did not have the deer density in my opinion to warrant MLD. Just to many dry years out there to warrant killing that many doe off and not that many true cull looking mulies on the place.

That has to be some awsome country to hunt Muleys in...iv hunted them in wyoming and love it..but being able to hunt them in texas just has a certain ring to it!

I think that we could benefit from MLD, but not sure we couldn't get the same results by doing the surveys and getting input from the local biologist. We are more than capable of taking 100 deer with our current setup and I think that we could manage to take around 40 bucks with no problem. There are enough kids and we know enough people that would love to come and take a deer that tags wouldn't be a problem.

Our problem right now is that we cannot shoot the deer as soon as we see it. We have to find someone to come shoot it and then try to get them on that deer. In three days, that is not always possible. MLD would allow the deer that need to go, to go when they needed to go.

Exactly that and the stretched season is its high points for sure

Look into the lamps tags i think you will like what you see

ADCP permit also very easy to get into. Check it out.

Let me get this right; You guys make all of the improvements to the camp, deer, and all that, and the Ranch Manager increases your prices? That doesn't seem fair to me, MLD or not.

MLD has it's plus's and minus's, but everyone on your place has to be on board to do what's supposed to be done for it to be succesful.

I've been hunting on a place for about 5 years now down in Llano County and for the last 3 we've been on MLD Type 3. In 2007, 3 deer, 2 8's that were 4.5 and one 10 that was 5.5, were killed in 3 consecutive days, that all score over 130. Trophies to some, management deer to others, but mature, full bodied deer none the less. It's about 1,000 acres and it's low fenced. I know it takes time to implement the program and takes time to see the results. It's fun to get to hunt for 5 months out of the year, but in having to kill so many deer (about 45 a year), hunting has become much harder and I've seen much fewer "shooter" bucks and the bucks I've seen have been no better than the one's we used to see. We follow the program to a "T".

Now, the fact of the matter to me is that I love to hunt this place, it's my favorite place in the world to be and I what I really enjoy is spending time with my buddy who asks me to go down there, but I'm not sure that the cost of feeding year round, plus protien, plus driving down there 8 more times because we get to hunt for 3 more months, is worth another 10-15" on a deer.

Are your neighbors on MLD or part of the same ranch/management? If not then they could be reaping the rewards of your management program.

And thats the decision somone has to make...we would all love to hunt for 5 months and shoot nicer deer...but you pay for what you get...and if its not worth it to you...than there are different types of permits and what not to help you with management that wnt burn a hole in you wallet..is this your place or a lease ?