Your not winning, I hope you realize that.

To say that the trajectory of the 45-70 has nothing to do "with it" is at least as naive than saying it has everything to do "with it."

I'm not sure where any of you are getting your statistics, yet you are spreading them as if they are the gospel. Then you get mad at the other guy for not being able to justify some make-believe thought/statistic/fact that you invented. I certainly haven't been here long, but this seems to be a common denominator with a half-dozen or so of the most seasoned members and moderators. Luckily, most people seem quite logical and friendly.

Among other cartridges, I do use a 45-70 for deer hunting, as well as its near trajectorical twin, the 30-30. Both limit the ability of the shooter (me) to lay down death from afar. The limitation of either cartridge is with the shooter, not the ballistics. The 45-70 has enough energy to dispatch any deer from a ridiculously long distance. I am not trained enough, nor do I have the appropriate ability to judge distances well enough to take long shots with either one.

So, my decision on which type of firearm to pick up has a lot to do with the type of hunting that I plan on doing, or what I have harvested thus far. I sure would hate to have ol' 20 point hanging around 300 yards away and I have no way to get a shot off. I could try about a million different things to try to close the distance, but what if I fail.

There is ZERO doubt in my mind that the trajectory of the 45-70 limits is sales in Texas. Is that the only factor? Heck no, not even close. But I believe it to be the number one factor.

Oh, btw, get the Marlin 1895, then switch out to a Wild Alaska trigger. You'll love it!!!

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Looks like me and Stinger are on the same page for the most part.

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Don't look that way to me skippy.

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There is ZERO doubt in my mind that the trajectory of the 45-70 limits is sales in Texas. Is that the only factor? Heck no, not even close. But I believe it to be the number one factor.

Oh, btw, get the Marlin 1895, then switch out to a Wild Alaska trigger. You'll love it!!!

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Of course you have to take the contradictory statements of:

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Is that the only factor? Heck no, not even close.

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and :

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But I believe it to be the number one factor.

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Some what with a grain of salt.

Also Stinger doesn't say anything about how many 300 yard shots he is presented with every year, now do he. Looks to me like if he was that worried about them long range shots, why would he be recommending a Model 95 Marlin?

Now we have had a pretty good debate on this issue, except for the fact that you keep dancing around the real issue which is the range at which most deer are shot at in Texas.

Now, as we are coming down to a point wher3e this can fade into history are you going to start grasping at trying to get other folks to side with you as a cheering section.

Stinger, for your information as far as I know neither myself or JCB was mad.

Crazy,

I wonder if you actually read what I wrote, or just glanced at it and took what you wanted to use. My statement was in NO way contradictory. Just because there are multiple factors does not mean there can't be a major (number one) factor, does it?

Do you know what percentage of deer are shot at +/- 150 yards? I didn't think so. Neither do I, but I'd actually guess more than you did. Does that make trajectory irrelevant? I tend to think not.

The beautiful thing about this country, though, is that I have the option of buying whatever I feel like plucking off of the shelf without having to justify it to anyone. Some days I feel like bringing the ol' levergun, while others I might just grab that bolt and scope. Either way, I'll be smoking a stogey after dark, shooting the bull over the camp fire, and telling tall tales.

Geez people, just get a good ole reliable 30-06 and then you will have a gun that will do anything you want to do in Texas. IT will even take down an ELK if you hit it in the kill zone.

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Do you know what percentage of deer are shot at +/- 150 yards? I didn't think so. Neither do I, but I'd actually guess more than you did. Does that make trajectory irrelevant? I tend to think not.

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Talking about someone only reading what they want to.

The statement wasn't + or -, it was, more deer in Texas are shot at ranges LESS THAN 150 yards than are shot at ranges OVER 150 yards.

Now, are you trying to say that you think more than 75 to 80% of the deer in Texas are shot at ranges LESS than 150 yards or that more deer are shot at ranges OVER 150 yards?

Also, in my opinion, the reason the 45/70 is not popular in Texas, is, as I stated earlier, because it comes in either lever action or single shot, and bolt action rifles are the most popular form of rifle used in Texas, with the AR style rifles gaining in popularity.

Trajectory is way down the list.

If lever actions were popular with hunters, you would see more people carrying them, and some companies, such as Browning thru their BLR line, offer lever guns in many of the more popular calibers that are normally considered bolt action calibers.

Trajectory, especially with modern factory loaded ammo is not that much of an issue with people, in comparison to the issue of the type of rifle the cartridge is offered in, availabilty of ammo, and snob appeal.

The other part of the issue still remains, just because hunters can see farther in various parts of the state, that does not mean that there is a noticeable increase in the number of shots being taken or deer being killed over 150 yards.

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You just dont get it!!

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Neither do you.

Not everyone is in the same situation as you are, nor do they want the same things out of their deer gun.

Lever actions are just not as popular as bolt actions, regardless of the caliber. Where have I heard that before.

You stated your opinion about the 45/70 and why you think it is not poular in your original post, I don't agree with the trajectory being the major reason that the round is not popular.

You stated your opinion about how far you think people shoot at white tails, and that as the ability to see farther increases, the ranges at which people take shots increases, and I disagree with that, and feel that the majority of deer, and 75%+ is the majority, are killed at rages of 150 yards or less, which in essense blows the trajectory problem out of the tub.

Just like you with your Ultra Mag and me with my big bores of which the 45/70 is definitely one, there is and always will be a limited following.

The majority of hunters in the state want modern bolt action center fire rifles that shoot readily available ammunition. The popularity of the AR's is gaining, but lever rifles and single shots, the two variaations the 45/70 are offered in will never have the popularity of the bolt or the AR's.

I think I have at least as well as you do.

In fact I think if you will look, more folks are recommending the 45/70, than are throwing it under the bus.

Now, can you show me where I missed something???????

What ever you say CHC!!

So are the gun manufacturers and ammo makers on the wrong track with these new flatter shooting rounds and more areodynamic bullets that give us better trajectory?

Why did Honrnaday feel the need to improve the trajectory of the 45-70 and other lever rounds with the Levereveloution bullets?? After all... just about all of them are good enough to take deer at 150 yards or less! Why did they feel the need to improve on that?

I am by no means throwing the 45-70 under the bus. It is a great round like I said in my first post, and it would be my first choice for a close range hog thumper.



By the way.....whats the score??

I think we are tied for the most part. If it will make you feel any better, yes, trajectory IS a consideration, but I do not place it as high on the list as you do, and at TYPICAL deer shooting ranges in TEXAS, I do not feel that it is even an issue.

The need that brought about the improvements to the loadings of the 45/70 and 30-30, was the developement of newly designed and built lever action rifles by Marlin.

It is part of the game plan Marlin along with Hornady instituted to try and resurrect the lagging sales of lever action firearms.

Even the improvements in the rifles themselves and the ones made to the ammunition has only resulted in a slight increase in sales of either.

Look at the Browning BLR, that gun uses basicaklly all modern rounds, as I mentioned earlier 22-250, 243, etc. etc., and sales of that rifle are not brisk.

You are continueing to try and take this away from the original debate, and that still remains.

The lack of popularity of the 45/70 is due in large part to the type of rifles it is offered in, and the majority of deer in Texas are shot at ranges of 150 yards or less.

You have expressed YOUR preferences in rifles, and I expressed MINE.

That still does not negate the fact, that the statements you made in your OR, about the trajectory and the hunting ranges are ones that I still do not agree with.

I am not asking you to agree with me, I am trying to get you to see that trajectory is not THE reason why the 45/70 is no more popular than it is, and that just because hunters can see farther and can shoot farther it does not mean that they do under normal circumstances.

Ball is in your court.

While sales may be up in certain parts of the country, I would be willing to bet you that in Texas, sales of bolt actions are still in the lead.

There will always be an interest among a certain portion of the hunters in Texas an the U.S, as a whole in lever rifles. I own 2. That does not change the fact that in Texas and nationwide, the sales and ownership of lever actions will never catch up to bolt actions.

Also if it has not already happened, it will in the next few months to one year, the sales and ownership of AR's are going to surpass the lever actions.

Personal feelings aside as to the merits of certain calibers and action types, the average hunter is going to buy what everyone around them is buying, with bolt and now AR's being the front runners, with lever actions/single shots and pumps bringing up the rear.

I realize that thru your contacts you have inside information to things a lot of us don't, but you can not convince me that a factor in the introduction of the leveRevolution ammo, was that Marlin was making a move to offer new and improved lever rifles, but that introducing such rifles without a major change in the type of ammo that could be shot in them, was not going to provide an increase in sales. JMO.

Browning BLR's are pretty dog gone pricey and that might have something to do with the lack of sales of those rifles. They also are not that attractive if you ask me.

Marlin put longer barrels on thier new XLR rifles and came up with the Levereveloution ammo to squeeze every little bit of range out of those rounds that they could. It is common knowledge that Lever rounds are handicapped by thier blunt nose bullets which cause them to lose velocity very quickly. The quicker you lose velocity the more your trajectory is going to suffer.

Longer barrels on the XLR and more areodynamic bullets such as the Levereveloution equels more velocity which also equates to better trajectory therefore making it a longer range gun.

I think Hornaday and JCB think alot alike!!

Your turn!!

I am through messing with you, your so hung up on it being a trajectory issue that you ain't gonna look or listen to anything else.

I can be into a lot better discussion about lever action rifles and the pros and cons of them, and the ammunition they shoot with Ranch Dogg, at least from my dealings with him, he has an open mind.

I have done said once, that trajectory does play a role, just not as much of one as you think it does.

We have took this thing so far off topic that "Kit" Carson may not be able to find us.

Trajectory is not the number 1 reason that folks don't like the 45/70, and 75 to 80% of all deer shot in Texas are killed at ranges of 150 yards or less, and more people have recommended the 45/70 then have been against it.

Your serve.

You say trajectory has nothing to do with it, and I say it does.

I think we can just leave it at that.

I will be watching your's and Ranchdogg's exchanges just to see if he can talk some since into you and me.

I still say that trajectory is a major factor though!

I almost forgot:

I think that in honor of our little debate that I will drag out the 444 Marlin (I dont own a 45-70) and take it with me to the lease this weekend just to see how high I have to aim to hit my target at 400 yards.

This ought to be fun!!

Good Luck and have fun, better yet, make sure that "Target" has 4 legs a white tails and a nice set of antlers.

CHC... I wouldn't begin to deny that bolts outsell levers or any other type of action. My comments only reflect that Marlin is selling everything they can possibly manufacture and by mid-year or earlier most models are sold out. I also would not argue that the AR rifles are raising heads particularly with the wide variety of calibers being offered. The rifles remain very pricey and that always limits sales. I sold my last Colt in September and I had some reservations about letting it go but I hadn't shot one bullet out of it in over 10 years. I used the funds to buy a nice Marlin 336SC chambered in the very rare 219 Zipper!

JCB... I don't think the average shooter knows diddly about trajectory. If the average shooter makes some decisions based on trajectory, most won't actually ever experience the ballistic envelope those decisions were based on. These "decisions based on trajectory" can be a decision to buy a gun because it shoots "flat", or "flatter" than another. It can be the decision to establish a PBR or sight in a gun at a particular distance. It can be the decision to sight in a gun at a particular height above zero at a specific distance. Whatever the trajectory based decision is, the average shooter is never going to develop the ballistic envelope based on that decision. Plan and simple, hunters don't shoot enough.

Besides hunting on my place, I hunt with a very large outfitter who's outfit probably sees more trophy whitetails killed in this State than any other. I'm talking about 250 to 300 deer that will score 140+ with a majority of these taken on low fence ranches. High fence properties are so large that the deer are never limited by the fence. About a decade ago, he got tired of the wound loss and started requiring a 100-yard zero to hunt (you have to shoot before you hunt).

He did this because:
• 99% of the deer are killed inside that distance, and
• 99% of the hunters didn't actually understand the ballistics of their trajectory decision they had made

The kill loss stopped. If someone is dead set about their rifle shooting X above zero because of some trajectory decision, his reply is simple. Hit the bullseye at 100-yards. Not 1, 2, or 3" high, hit the bullseye. Most can't and their rifles are re-sighted in at 100-yards because the kill is going to be made inside that distance. This rule applies to antelope, mule deer, and nilgai hunters as well. I now have the same rule on my ranch except NO PBR or X HIGH. 100-Yard zero and hit the bullseye. I too now have a zero animal loss and some pretty good shooters. Just this past weekend, I had family member miss out on a couple of days of hunting because he and his rifle couldn't do it (3 shots inside a 4" bullseye). A young fellow that loves the outdoors but spent zero time this year preping for the hunt... "besides the gun was on when a killed my deer last year." Well, he wasted a couple of days and shot up all his ammo.

We've also hijacked the heck out of this post. I will maintain that the 45-70 will do anything you want on any critter in this Lone Star State (or North America for that matter). Factory ammo or reloads. Like any other caliber, you got to shoot to completely understand it.

For the record, here is my "hunting" load for my Marlin 1895G with a 350-grain home cast lead bullet and 50.5-grains of H4198...

Many Thanks for the input.

The thing I have noticed over the years, is that while a lot of hunters talk about what they should be able to do on the 200 yard + shots, very few have actually ever tried a shot at those ranges, at paper even.

When presented with an "In The Field" situation and looking at a deer or a pronghorn or even an elk at 250 or 350 yards out, they get hesitant, especially when they don't have a bench to shoot from.

I have over the years, had the opportunity to hunt with folks that were unbelievable off the bench, and they would have a loose leaf binder with them with their old targets saved with all the balistic information and what the weather conditions were etc..

Yet you get them out in the field and up on even a javelina at 50 or 75 yards off hand and they can't hit the thing.

Also, while there are those folks out there that are great game shots, the majority of hunters are "Once A Year Wonders", that spend little or no time at the range, go on one or two hunts, shoot a deer or whatever, kill it with one shot, pay no attention to where they were aiming at and its relationship to where the bullet actaully hit, go home throw their gun in the closet and not look at it again till the next year. JMOF.

That's what I see CHC, you hit the nail on the head.

I always relate this to my desert mule deer hunting. I hunt with my 444 Marlin. I expect and get a lot of ribbing from the guys with the latest and greatest fire-breathers. When we do the 100-yard qualifier, I go first. Not a problem but there IS ALWAYS some snickering behind me about my fat bullets and ugly gun. On the range are some steel target cutouts in the shape of a mule deer. The farthest is 300-yards. The outfitter knows I'm going to do it but I take a fourth shot and splatter my lead bullet across the lungs of that steel deer at 300-yards. It gets very quite behind me. Of course, of the 10,000 rounds of big game ammo I shoot a year about half of those are out of 444 Marlins. I have a 300-yard range next to my house! I'm also always surprised that very few shooters will shoot at that 300-yard steel deer.

A couple of years ago, I took my dad and he hunted with his M94 chambered in 30-30 Win. He shot and hit the 300-yard steel deer first, then shot his 100-yard qualifier... smart a$$!

If I remember right, you posted a picture of the Mulie you Dad shot that year on this site didn't you???

So........I guess it is not too big for whitetail.