fuzzy math?

there are about 14,000 people here saying they didn't shoot a legal buck this year, but everytime the statistics come out..... EVERY hunter in an AR county shot 4 deer...

I cant stand AR's. There has to be a better way to manage the herd. I know that we had far more deer in the 80's when they opened up the does and even had a 2 buck limit in Cass for a while. I have killed s couple of great deer in Red River on some land in my family around Rosalie. It is a mixture of hardwood and wheat and milo. Deer there get some width, but I have a deer on my homeplace that hangs out behind the house. Josh and I have watched him for 3 years now.He would score 140, but Im still not sure he is 13 inches wide. Damnest thing I have ever seen.

If that's not proof statistics can lie, I don't know what is! So anyway, how long ago did say you hunted those counties you mentioned earlier and what county do you hunt now?

I'll say this and leave it alone... I really wish you guys were seeing more deer. It sucks that you aren't. I just don't think the lack of deer has anything to do with the 13" rule.

I also wish there was a way that obviously mature deer could be shot, but what is it? people have a hard enough time with the 13" rule, and spread is one of the easier things to esitmate on a deer. what should it be? 25" of mass or more? 15" beams or longer? total tine length totalling over 30 inches?

a right rear hoof longer than 3.5432"?

who knows. My own theory.... it's the damn russians.

Kyle, i bet you and turkeyfantic went to the same school! LOL.

curly... 3-6 years ago. haven't been back since. every time I think about finding a lease closer to home, I read these threads and it changes my mind....

perhaps, there is no shortage of deer, and it's an east texas conspiracy to keep people out!

But what county do you hunt now and dang it....you busted us!

Think of it like this. We have doe days, they get hammered. We can kill one "small" buck, be it a spike or 3 point and one deer over 13 inches. These areas have a limit of 4 deer and then on top of it you can kill one 13 inch in Cass and one in Morris, if your land is like mine in 2 counties, then we get more pressure than was intended. If anything lets say you can kill one buck east of 35 and one west of 35.

Kyle all we are sayin is it wasnt broke before AR and we want it back the way it was! Had more deer before ar and way less now! It aint WORKING here. Im done for the night my head is about to explode and i dont want to give the pro ar guys the satisfaction.

Thats fine with me. I remember well the influx of people back in the mid 80's. Sounded like a dang war opening day in my neighborhood.

Math score = 100%!

If enough people gather and voice what they want the state wiil listen ( Grayson Co bow or crossbow only ) The AR is a good thing but the 4 deer for those heavily hunted countys are not good things. Due too smaller average land holding in east tx it should have a modified version of the AR. If you put your voices togather you could have a bow/crossbow only

We dont want a bow or crossbow only! We want fewer tags available to everybody so fewer deer are killed.

They could say 13 plus or 4.5 and older. This would elimanate the deer needing to be havested but not wide enough. Nothing is set in stone get enough people to say what they want and they will listen

That would be great! Hey Mr. Deer, how old are you?

Age is not going to work. We may all say we know how to age, but we dont. I have a brother that works for TPWD and he ages deer for a study in the Panhandle. He said he figures hunters are about 50% on judging age. That is not a perfect science, until you get that jawbone harvested.

That would work great are we going to age deer by looking at the length of there ears?????? (like how to measure the 13" from a distance. I think I can tell a 4.5 from a 3.5 yr old deer but im not getting a ticket over that either!!!!!



Grayson bow only that will get some riled up and cause a new 18 page thread ! WE all KNOW there are NO deer in Grayson county so it HAS to be BOW only!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh by the way I go no response from you on the mature (6.5 yr old deer AGED by Jawbone) that was posted above.. Were people really implying that no deer could be over 4.5 years old and under 13"?????

TGT

Grayson county has one pocket of large deer imported.

It would not support four deer per hunter either.

Why do you turkey, or the other AR-proponents feel the overwhelming need to impose your values and opinions in places you have never been or hunted? We're not saying AR's are bad for Angelina, or Houston or Madison, or Archer...

Just that they suck in Red River, Fannin, Hopkins.

I manage or have access to 20k acres in Fannin and Grayson County. I am on and around it daily. When we see a deer, it's noteworthy. It will come up at lunch or supper discussion that day. And I could legally kill four, 2 bucks no less.

In Foard County, its nothing to see 10-20 or 30 deer, often 10 bucks and 4 does(2.5 to 1).... but you can only kill one buck...


We're not trying to say you guys are crazy, why do you feel the need to tell us how stupid redneck backwoods inbred hillbillies we are?

Heck, we already know.

Your right it was mature and looked to be under 13. The fact is at 4.5 a buck is pretty easy to tell he is mature. I can under stand the doe thing because I have seen a biologist " F " a ranch up over harvesting does. What is needed is large scale talks with the state to change the AR to balance the hunting pressure with the herd size in east tx. And as far as Grayson co it has lot of deer. It was the case when they first set it up but all in the county like the protection the bucks get. It produces some of the largest deer in the state and nation every year

I hunt Tyler County mostly and some in Sabine and I really don't like AR's. Like other's have said things were pretty good prior to AR's. Now, I see many bucks that don't meet the AR's but are mature, looking at body shape and size and some of those I see antler wise I would hate to see breeding, but we can't shoot them. IMO AR's seem to be more about trying to increase antler size than the herd, using the guize that anlter size increases with age(but I am not saying thats not true)as a broad statement. Seems I see more people rating their deer more on BC scores than in age,weight and points. And talking more about increasing anlter scores than herd size, health and weight. I hunt for the venison and the fun and friendship at the lease and the AR's are taking away the venison, but we still have fun and friendship, but taking fewer deer and the rising cost of things almost makes some people second think about going hunting. When I personally hear state biologist say that they know that AR's will not reasonably work in the areas I hunt because of herd genetics and we will see little increase in antler width I can't understand why we have the AR's. There are too many variables in herd management to say AR's are the cure all. I'd rather see the herd increase in health,size and average body weight than in an antler score. I'd much rather harvest a 3yo 12" 8pt buck weighing 150+lbs than a 5 yo 14" 10pt buck weighing 120lbs; you can't eat horns!

South and Eastern Grayson County has very few deer. I lived in Whitewright and grew up working on farms all around there. I bet there's not 200 deer from WW to Howe to the southern county line. I speak daily with farmers from that area and they are just now beginning to ever see deer.

There is one big pocket of imported deer around Haggerman. Yes they produce some great deer, but they are all coming from about 25 square miles of a 1600 square mile county (ok, numbers from my head, don't google it)

Well I will say that when Jack Co went AR for this year I was happy because I get tired of watching 2.5 yr old buck jump the fence onto the neighbors place that has two many hunters on it for its size and hearing a gun go off. I have a small place in Hamilton Co that has been AR for 5 years and WOW cant compare. See 4 or 5 does every hunt and 3 or 4 bucks every hunt with 2 or 3 mature bucks making a few showing through the season

It sounds like deer hunting needs to be stopped all together for about 3 years in these counties to let the herd build back up. Then only issue tags (doe or buck) based on the number of acres -maybe 1 tag per 200 acres.

We got alot of them in the there and we are on the houston walker/ county line

I ment to qoute the tbga comment.

I honestly think the best thing the Parks and Wildlife could do is to make it illegal for 2 years to kill anything with horns, unless your land is under the MLD program. That way we get 2 more years on every buck out there and all these so-called "meat hunters" can put their bullets where their mouths are and shoot the does that eat just as well as the 2.5 yo 8 point that only measures 12". This way we can get past all this crap about how the 13" rule screws up the harvest. Some of the pictures that have been posted during this topic has shown nothing but young deer that the 13" rule is designed to protect. Is it perfect? No, but it will allow some of these bucks to get closer to their full potential, before they get blasted. I have pictures of a 4.5 yo buck that is probably only 14", but he is close enough to the AR that the neighbors don't want to take a chance. This buck is 16 points and will score in the mid-140's. Next year with some protein and the right rains, this buck will still be fairly narrow, but will probably score in the 160's and only have a 15" spread. I would say the AR's are doing their job allowing this buck to reach his full potential. On the other hand I had pics of another 15 point with a 17" spread that was 4.5 yo. He too would have scored in the mid-140's. I think he might have gotten shot by the neighbors, because I haven't seen him in a good 4 weeks. This buck too could have been in the 160's next year, if the AR's protected deer 17" and under. Alas, not a perfect system, but better than letting the "meat hunters" shoot the 2.5 yo that hasn't even sniffed his full potential.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against TRUE meat hunters. But don't hide behind it and shoot the young bucks, so you can throw their 8 point racks on a wall inside your barn. If you truly want the meat, shoot a doe, there's plenty of them in Texas. I killed 3 this year and would have killed more if I had more tags. I also let 4 bucks walk that were over 13" wide and would have scored in the mid-120's to lower 150's. The reason... they don't eat as good as those does and I've already got a 170" 13 point hanging on the wall (this buck was only 16" wide). I want one bigger. In short, I like the AR's because they allow that buck that crossed in front of my neighbors that I watched all season get to next year, where he might have the potential to go over 170".