As far as the not seeing mature buck goes. Man thats just east texas. I am on an intensly managed property and we dont see that many mature bucks. They are smart and the woods are thick.

http://www.i-maps.com/Qdma/frame/default...00&MF=11000

the most common problem I see is using estimations on population density. If you want to practice QDMA, which is what TPW has done by restricting harvest on bucks while increasing doe harvest (to attempt to mess with an estimated ratio....which is canceled out by the yearling tag), you had better be dang sure of what that density is or you will shoot a place out. Coupled with what jbs touched on by hunter density... you can basically wipe out one of those deer pockets (common for ETx), despite one person sitting on their tags. We see spikes, we see does, we have the ability to limit what gets shot on a section of land, we hold the best bedding area around and that helps concentrate deer...we have mature deer. Other folks aren't as lucky and my guess would be they are holding a thin pocket or are on the outskirts of a pocket's range.

One of the best posts ever. I may have to quote you in my paper.


Our pocket or herd has grown steadily since the 80's only to be wiped out in a few years with AR's.


The state knows it too. They'll admit it behind the scenes off the record etc. Their data is too global to be used at a local level, not to mention it's reliability is poor at best. I think they are good people and I think they will fix it IF they ever get the money and there are hunters and deer left when they do!

THis much I know for a fact. I grew up and did a lot of hunting in WHarton County. For years we could kill 2 bucks but could not get any doe tags, even tho the ranch across the Colorado river got tags by the hundreds.

I killed a lot of young 3-4-5 points, especially bowhunting. I killed maybe 4 that were big enough at the time to draw attention . Not a one would be legal today. Under the AR regs, I would have hunted there ( and been the only one most of the time ) for over 15 years and would never have been able to shoot a deer. Well the last couple of years we were finally able to get doe tags and I guess that would mean hypothetically I could have.

I know that TP&W felt they had to do something. But change it up some. A couple years of 13"s then maybe a year or 2 of 8 points or better . At least that way, some of those hat racks could be removed.

And also, in my opinion, the spike or unbranched antler deal is just throwing the hunters a bone because they know the over 133 are far and few between

Thank you...I'm full of ideas, or something else on most days

don't shoot does. now there is an eye opening opinion for deer management.

a certain amount of land will only hold so many deer.

do you want does, or do you want bucks?

LOve the food argument for southern red river county. How many years have you hunted there?

red river county, red river county, red river county, red river county....


how many counties are under AR's?

What county do you hunt?

I used to hunt anderson, madison, and houston.

How long ago was that and what county do you hunt now?

I don't care. It's the one that is losing deer!

That's the point, it may be fantastic somewhere else. I have never debated wether it works in Angelina or ??? (BTW same data set used in Agelina and Fannin/Red River Counties!) I would never think to tell someone there (where I don't hunt or have any knowledge) they are wrong.

That would be, well, wrong.

We are kinda liking it in Archer.

I'd love to have the second buck/spike tag in Foard or Hardeman where we see 10-12 bucks a sitting...


But because it may work in Archer, and might help some in Foard, has NOTHING at all to do with what is happening in Red River!!!

Get a map. Texas is a large, diverse state. Assuming there's one cure for a population of wild animals over that large an area is, well, wrong.

LONG long long ways from Anderson madison and houston to Red River, Hopkins or Fannin.

nothing wrong with Houston Co... been seeing nice deer in that county as far back as I can remember.

So Houston County wasn't an emerging county? It had an established prolific deer herd?

It's had one dang good pocket from what I've seen. Google up TBGA and see where a whole lot of your entries come from in that county.

WELL UNDER 13" and was 6.5 years old.....



Thats great advise BUT if you roll up on a game warden (having previously talked to him or not) with an illegal deer you are most likely going to get a ticket. PERIOD!

I got a ticket the other day for 85 in a 65!!!! The trooper did not HAVE to give me a ticket and he had the OPTION!! to not give me a ticket but guess what I GOT A TICKET!!!

I will find the game cam pics of this guy soon.

Parts of Angelina are losing deer, but it's b/c of ramped up doe harvest on MLD spilling over onto other properties. Then those other properties becoming MLD and suggested they also ramp up doe harvest w/ just a 3.5yr old minimum on bucks according to their management plan. Things were going great when there were only 75-100 does being killed, but when they hit the 280s mark and sustained that for a few years, things went to pot. Now the big deer in that long stetch of road are coming closer to town on a stretch of nonMLD clubs that allows members and their families to kill 1 buck and 2 does. Those older prestigious MLD leases just don't have the ability to produce the quantities of bucks it takes for their mgmt plans.

X2 a close friend of mines son shot a beautiful 4.5 yr 10 point that measured 12 5/8. Ticket was $300 plus restoration fee up to $2,500 (they haven't heard yet) What a horror story. These folks are good people that totally manage the land they own. Makes me sick.

That SUX seeing it was a mature deer!

funny how that deer wouldn't have brought the state squat a few yrs ago.

..and another thing, you don't get to keep the head and it's up to the GW if you get to keep the meat.
That's kinda like what you get when you kill one of the King's deer except they don't execute you!

Vernon i dont know about you but i dont know where these guys went to school but they need to fire the math teachers and kick the parents butts! One more time for you pro ar is great for everybody guys, Used to legally kill 1 buck and no does unless bowhunting =1 buck maybe i doe. Along comes ar rules and bag limits, you guys still with me? Now you can legally kill 2 bucks and 2 does all during firearms season which = 4 deer total [am i still going to fast?] 1 buck before, now 4 deer! get it! Oh crap go ask your math teachers again maybe they can explain it better and with less sarcasm.

All I have to say is WOW people out there still on don't shot momma deer mangment, In a healthy herd you should harvast about 25% of the buck herd and 25% of the doe herd. If this is followed and the spikes are figured into the 25% buck havest and a attemp is made to kill older does you end up with not only a health herd but able to move to a havest plan that takes out unwanted traits. Now it your on a place that has a hunter per 50 acers and your neighbors are the same( NO WORKY )