If you are not the guys killin the young deer then it sounds like u have a neighbor problem, not an AR problem. Some guys want to worry about the deer they can't shoot, instead of trying to save the ones that shouldn't be shot. On a low fence property it is far more important to work on age structure and buck to doe ratio, than to worry about culling a narrow buck. An inferior buck is not going to breed many does if he gets a chance to breed at all.

Who said we had any kind of problem, neighbor or otherwise, with killing young deer? Well aware of needing to work on age structure. In this instance, ARs is keeping us from doing that very thing.

Do you guys realize that the doe has just as much to do with it as the buck? I know that you cant tell what genetics she caries but what I'm saying is just because a narrow buck breeds a doe it doesn't mean that the fawn will be a inferior deer and just because a huge buck breeds a doe it doesn't mean the fawn will be a huge deer. A lot of guys look at a deer and say ah ya he is a fawn from this or that buck. Well maybe or he could of been from his sister or a brother to him from his mother.

All I'm saying is just because bucks are getting by doesn't mean you are going to ruin the genetics in an area. Those genetics are already there and you aren't going to get rid of them. The ARs are just trying to let the average deer get a little older.

Hard to measure until they are on the ground. Some are 13 and some some are a bit short.

U said, in a previous post, the young wide deer are getting killed. If you aren't killing them, and your neighbors aren't killing them, who is?

+1 I think that deer have narrower racks in very dense country or how would they get thru. I know that there are wide racks, but I have seen several that are very mature, nice bucks that are too narrow by state rules. Now you are saying that we can never shoot these deer and they will die of old age. The rule has a good premise but definetly need to be tweaked with some realistic standards.

I don't agree with the 13" rule either. I have seen some very young bucks that would be legal and a lot of old bucks that have never and never will be legal under the 13" rule so they will pass on their inferior narrow genes and die of old age. Some of these old bucks would look great on the wall if they were legal. I don't have the answer but the 13" rule is not it. Body size would tell you a lot about age but a lot of typical hunters either don't care or are not that educated about deer.

Plus the TPWD harvest data - prior to AR's most bucks never reached their 3rd BD.

Hunter's need to get educated more about deer. You want to know why there is AR on the books, go sit at a locker plant opening weekend or T'giving weekend and see what some of these "hunters" bring in. I hear all the time: 1) It's the only weekend I have and needed to put some meat in the freezer (why don't you shoot a doe!) 2) It's opening weekend and I HAVE to kill a buck opening weekend! (WHY) 3) He looked a lot bigger when he was 300 - 400 yds away (sure he did).
As soon as the idiots out there stop worrying about HAVE TO SHOOT A BUCK, and start shooting more does, the genetics will take care of itself for the most part.

Meaning young deer that were getting killed in the state prior to ARs are still getting killed, not at my place.

I have read a lot of these AR threads and no one has mentioned this that I can remember. All the grumbling about the bucks, but they only carry half of the genes. Curious.

But since we can't take sub 13" mature bucks, our hands are tied from taking the half we CAN control.

I posted about this issue last week. Thumbs down on ARs. Passed the biggest buck of my life opening weekend for fear of spread. (Huge HIGH Rack but narrow 4.5 year old) At least 3 old bucks with no brow tines 3.5 to 4.5 year old on game cam that won't make spread. They will die passing on their genes. Frustrating to say the least! Ratio of about 3 bucks to doe. Crazy!!!

Since I don't have a picture of the deer that's the subject of the thread, it's very similar to this buck in both age and rack, but with shorter brows.

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1834754/1

A buddy and I were discussing this the other day and he showed me the antlers of a deer he shot last year. Only saw it broadside and pulled the trigger without even considering the spread. Fortunately, he was hunting a non-AR county.

The buck scored over 160, but was only 12 inches wide. I wish I'd have taken a pic of the antlers as I doubt a person on this forum would have passed that buck, regardless of county. Just looking at all the tines and mass, you wouldn't be able to pass.

The reality is these AR's are for the folks who hunt 1-2 weekends per year. I'd almost call those folks deer-shooters rather than hunters. They don't hunt, they just see antlers and pull the trigger. It's unfortunate that those of us who are actually "hunters" get affected by this ridiculous regulation that isn't really aimed at us.

I don't have a problem with regulations, but if you look at the map of AR counties on the TPWD website, you can see that it covers close to one-third of the state. It covers piney woods, hill county, cross timbers, rolling plains, gulf coast, and other types of land.

You can't tell me that the same rules apply to the deer herds in all of those different environments. I've hunted in many different counties included and all the counties have been unique and different.

The fact is, this regulation worked in a small experimental part of the state. TPWD put a great deal of research and money into that initial study and I would assume countless biologists were involved at that time. However, you can't tell me the same amount of thought and research was put into all the other regions now affected. There's just not that much money available for that to have been the case.

Basically, this is just another bureaucratic decision based on a small study and trying to recreate that across the state. Nature is too fickle for that to prove to be successful.

I'm only in my second year of AR's at the main place I hunt, but what I've seen so far is leaving a definite bad taste in my mouth.

So... if they purchased a lic. just like everyone else then they can shoot whatever is legal...

I really believe that when statements are made, similar to the one above we begin to see the real driving force behind this asinine law...

Lets keep making people feel bad for shooting a deer,(even though its a perfectly legal) only because you wouldnt shoot it? see how long it is before people give up on hunting or see how long it is before the average guy cant afford the sport anymore, Then what?????

"grandpa have you ever shot a deer"

"Yes billy I did once but some guy gave me a real hard time about it not being perfect so I decided that day I would never hunt again....."

Exactly what I'm talking about Hillbilly! Buck of a lifetime that AR folks can't shoot!

Question?? If genetics don't matter, why are all the giant "breeder" bucks we see pictures of bought and sold for thousands of dollars??? They sell the semen just like prize bulls for brood stock!!!

Genetics only matters for the all mighty dollar and bragging rights....IMO.

Protecting inferior genetics doesn't matter because ARs are about obtaining a proper age structure to the herd, right? It has nothing to do with antlers, right?

right

Maybe someone could just fence their deer in and they could grow whatever they wanted...

They do fence them in!!

I know... my point is that are the rest of the hunters in the state indirectly helping land owners avoid paying the cost of high fences.