I just commented that I would like to know some study data on AR and also why they implemented the 13" rule instead of the 4 point one side rule etc...I wasn't bashing at all, I just said that I feel maybe the AR should be revised somewhat...Here is TPWDs' response:

I appreciate your comments. One thing this is unique about the Texas antler-restriction regulation is that it is designed to eliminate the risk of high-grading. Point restrictions certainly could result in high grading. For example, a rule allowing only bucks with 4 points on a side to be killed is allowing for the harvest of the best yearlings and protection of the poorest-quality yearlings. The reason for this is that there is no correlation between age and number of points. However, there is a very strong correlation between age and inside spread. That's one reason why we went with the spread restriction. Another unique aspect of the Texas model is the “slot limit” (i.e., it allows for the harvest of deer with at least one unbranched antler) - further reducing the risk of high grading.



Nonetheless, this regulation does indeed protect some mature bucks with narrow spreads, which is an unintended consequence. But the good news is that only 4% of all mature bucks in these Resource Management Units (RMUs) have an inside spread less than 13" wide (based on data from thousands of harvested bucks). And long-term research has shown us that the bucks with at least one unbranched antler are more likely to be those narrow-racked bucks at maturity. So it would behoove hunters to take advantage of that second buck tag (for spikes and 3-pointers).



I put together a webpage that covers this in more detail, although I admit it needs to be updated:



http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/



I remember quite well the public scoping meetings we had in 31 counties when we were considering expansion to the antler-restriction regulation. In almost every public meeting there was quite a bit of discussion on exempting youth hunters. Attendees (hunters and landowners) were passionate in their opinions on this subject, but I was surprised to see which side most leaned towards. There were usually 1-2 attendees who would ask if we could exempt youth from the antler-restriction regulation. But before we had a chance to respond, many other attendees (attendance from all 31 meetings exceeded 1,100) jumped in with their dissenting opinions – with their children at their sides. One of the more common arguments was, “My child has been hunting with me for 3-4 years and he’s never even seen a buck. I want him to understand the need for this regulation – and follow the same rules – so there will be a day when he finally sees bucks when he goes hunting. I realize that the first bucks he sees may be too small to shoot, but at least he’ll be seeing some bucks.” Another argument was, “I appreciate the extra opportunity my kids have with the early youth-only season – giving them the first shot if a legal buck is anywhere around. They have been seeing only young bucks and they take pride in letting them walk another year. But then they get discouraged when a young buck leaves and a gun shot is heard several minutes later in that direction. I want my kids to be able to have more opportunity during that youth-only weekend – by having more mature bucks around.” Another fairly common argument was, “It seems a little hypocritical that I teach my kids the importance of letting most bucks mature, but then I say, ‘It’s alright – go ahead and shoot that young one.’” Please know that I am not placing judgment one way or another on any of these statements. I just thought I’d share some of this with you as I was surprised to hear these comments from so many attendees.



Although we are encouraged with our youth-hunting-participation data in the antler-restriction counties (especially in those counties that have been under this regulation more than 2 years), we will most definitely continue to consider other approaches to increase hunting opportunity provided that such does not have a negative impact on the resource.



Thanks again for your input. Feel free to call Alan Cain, White-tailed Deer Program Leader (830-569-1119), if you would like to discuss this further.



Mitch Lockwood

Big Game Program Director

TPWD

I am going to ask him about this... I have never seen or heard that before; would love to see those stats...

I was pleasently surprised to get a response back in such a timely manner. He makes a good argument, but I would still like to see something changed for youth to have a better shot at getting a deer with horns...

He hit the nail on the head.

ARs and the American Way. 2 winners in my book.

I think that is part of the problem with deer hunting in certain counties, everybody wants to get something with horns no matter if it is a yearling or a mature deer. Thus the need for ARs to improve the overall quality and age structure of the herd for everyone. In my opinon letting youth shoot any buck they see in AR counties is like taking 3 steps forward followed by one step backwards. This is for the long term benefit of the herd and it is easy to get blinded by instant gratification of shooting the first thing with hard horns that walks out. What is wrong with youth shooting does? I promise it will get them just as hooked on hunting, most of the time it is adults who get caught up in the size of deer and the kids are just purely excited to be out there and shoot a deer.

At least it was a good mannered response with some useful information rather than just saying "that's the way it is".

Only problem with my kids shooting a doe is that in our county that can only be done during archery season, and I don't feel we have enough does at our place to justify letting them take one with their crossbow...

But your right and you make a good point about it. I want my kids first buck to be a small one so they don't get spoiled on the larger horns right off the bat.

I read where the Texas deer population currently stands at over 4 million. Sounds to me like our herds are healthy and thriving and I would be willing to bet ARs had very little to do with that. IMO

ARs aren't in every county, Curly.

They're needed some places. They're not in others.

But they're awesome everywhere.

I like his response. I also like what AR are doing in my area. The camera does not lie. Through AR management we are getting far more large mature bucks than 3 years ago. 3 years ago we had none. Those on my lease who raised hell the first year have got over it and now have no comment or one 70 year old man said "just didn't think it would work but look at that".

u know as well as i do, that looking at the total population number in no way means there is a healthy heard....

That's okay, John Wayne, Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone hated ARs.......anyone who says otherwise is fabricating huge untruths!

ARs have nothing to do with deer quantity it's about quality of bucks.

I used to be against ARs and still have some problem with them but last weekend I saw proof first hand of why ARs are needed. Now I am more in agreement with them.

And just how many of those deer have you heard have been in need of going to a doctor? Answer me that! That's what I thought......healthy!

That pretty much sums up ARs alright.

lol, everyone knows that curly.... it doesnt matter how much they tell u its the age structure, it is BUCK QUALITY.....of course with more age comes more quality....

the sooner u accept the fact that they lied to u about the age thing and start understanding that they only want to make bigger bucks, the happier we will all be.

I haven't been following the AR threads so I am confused. What's the big problem, everyone knows that deer hunting has turned into a HUGE money market that the state is feeding off of which is why ARs are implemented. Bigger bucks = more money from hunting.

What's the big deal with that. I would guess everyone hunts for the chance to kill a monster buck, well ARs help that. And if you say that horns don't matter then really why the heck would you care about ARs anyway because does and young spikes which you can shoot still are the best eating.

Ol' Mitch got a promotion....

TPWD Commission meeting Aug. 2005, not so publicized proclimation that we have an original TPWD "Daddy of Antler Restrictions"
linky

Wonder if that comes with the TPWD Commission Meeting Decleration as Grandson of "TPWD Daddy of Antler Restrictions - Bob Carrol" ?

Seems Mr. Wolf is still in the ahead of him probably a son of "TPWD Daddy of Antler Restrictions - Bob Carrol".



Caution TPWD DATA SWITCH>>>>>


Hmmm how can it be that it used to be 5% of mature bucks that slipped through the cracks ?? Protected and Left to breed while all other segments of the buck herd was targeted. and SHAZAMM they went down to 4% ????
Musta gone through a "data massage" to make it sound better.


Still toeing the old TPWD spike line too, I see.
This should read...




Not the webpage propaganda again...to the "6 of use in opposition". Heheheh



Youth hunter question is a good one too.


So just how many youth does it take before they will admit there is a negative effect on 'em.
Do we have to wait for 30 yrs of research for that too? Then they aren't youths anymore.....

Do we want to start paying more money? I don't.

i dont really plan on payin any money.... except property taxes one day... but hopefully those will be gone too. And ya, higher deer hunting prices would be nice... maybe i could lease a place out and make some dough off it.

I too sent an email to TPWD on Antler restriction and why they have not considered Main Beam as an option criteria. Here is there comment. On another note. i was very impressed about how quickly they replied!


I appreciate your input. Yes, you’re right…Texas is definitely the leader in deer management, and my good friends with Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks will be among the first to admit that. Although, they certainly don’t agree with everything that is allowed in Texas regarding deer management! We are fortunate to have such a good relationship with them and all other deer biologists in the country. We meet twice each year to discuss research, management, and other topics. This particular topic is discussed every time we get together. As you probably know, Mississippi has had a 4-point rule for quite a while. In fact, they were one of the first states with an antler-restriction regulation, and we were fortunate to learn from the shortcomings of their statutes (i.e., passed by their legislature rather than by their Commission). Their more recent rule you referenced is not a statewide rule, but rather something they finally got approval to try out in some areas. You’ve probably noticed from their literature that they basically adopted our 13” rule (and changed it to 12” to cover some anomalies in their coastal plains region). So we learned from them, and then they learned from us. It’s a pretty neat relationship we have…

They did add the beam length as a second criterion in some areas, to appease some who really wanted it. They believed that biological data did not indicate it was a bad idea. They did understand that it would be much more difficult for hunters to judge beam length than to judge inside spread. But if a hunter wanted to take a chance, they were willing to allow it. In Texas, we’ve learned (from a much more voluminous data set), that adding that criterion to the definition of a “legal buck” simply won’t make more bucks “legal” (with very few exceptions). So it would unnecessarily complicate the rule (by adding an additional criterion), which would confuse hunters. Hunters told us they wanted simplification, and we took that to heart.

The deer you described is quite unusual, assuming he’s a mature buck. Data (from tens of thousands of harvested bucks in these Resource Management Units) indicate that only 4% of all mature bucks in these Resource Management Units (RMUs) have an inside spread less than 13" wide.

I put together a webpage that discusses our antler-restriction regulation more detail, although I admit it needs to be updated:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/

Thanks again for your input. Feel free to call Alan Cain, White-tailed Deer Program Leader (830-569-1119), if you would like to discuss this further.

Thanks,

Mitch Lockwood

You could say Mitch is doing a good job for the TP&W.

Yep Company man all the way.