I've seen wounded deer with 30-378 Mags as well and had to put dogs on them to finally track them down and kill them!

A 223 will kill any whitetailed deer in the world just as dead as a 373 H&H magnum will provided the bullet is put in the right spot!

I think there has been some very good advice given on this thread about the education and teaching a kid how to shoot and where. The only thing I'd add to it is if he hasn't shot a centerfire rifle yet, DON'T start him on one! If you do not have one, get or borrow someone's .17, .22, or .22 mag and get him used to this first. He will not develop any bad habits such as jerking the trigger or flenching with a small, quiet gun like he might with a louder .223! It will also be much, much easier on your pocket book buying a couple hundred rounds for one of these guns then a 223 for him to practice with.

Start him out at 20-25 yards and when he consistently can put 3 shots in a 1"-1.5" group move him up to 40-50 yards. Go slowly with it and be patient and before you know it he'll be shooting great. Watch him very, very closely so that you can coach him through sqeeeeeeeeeeeezing the trigger slowly!

Get a bunch of old hunting magazines and give him a pen or pencil and let him show you where to put the crosshairs on each picture while teaching him why you put it on the front 1/3 of the deers shoulder when he's quartering to you or behind the shoulder 6" when he's quartering away. Before you know it he'll know exactly what to do when that first shot opportunity comes his way!

Good luck, and most of all enjoy every second of teaching this little guy!!!

Damn skippy! You are right on the $$$$

I do not care what there magazine says I'll call BS on this one! I understand physics 1/2 way decent and know that a 12g shotgun with light loads does kick less then a 20g with standard loads but this is different. If you are pushing a 115 bullet with quite a bit more powder charge out of a .27 diameter bore vs an 80 gr bullet with less powder out of a .243 diameter bore there is no way in h--l that .270 will have less recoil!

That same situation can and does happen everyday of hunting season with a .270 or larger caliber!



In a heartbeat, without a doubt whatsoever! It will kill a 200+ lb 200" buck just as dead as a 70lb doe! That is a fact!



Honestly? Because 1/2 of them cannot shoot to save their arsh! The other 1/2 shoot whatever they are pimping for their high $$$ sponsors which obviously has a large impact on a lot of people that go out and buy chit that they do not need one bit! Hope you are not one of them!



This is good that your son now has a rifle that he's confident in and is doing a great job for him. But, I'll assure you a shot with that rifle through an area of any deer or elk that doesn't connect with either a vital organ or a major vein, and that animal will be just as wounded as one shot with a 223 using whatever bullet you like!

I will get him out and practice more with his 22 regardless, he is consistent with it,then start workin him up, as far as knowing where to shoot he knows exactly where, on the last one I got he pointed out I was alittle high which I laughed because I was. My wife gets upset any time we see a magazine in the store or where ever he points right behind the front shoulders and says "right there daddy" I think its great, her not so much. I was hopng to put off letting him shoot his own for a couple more years but after this season its all he can talk about, everyday - brings a tear to my eye-LOL,, he has been going out with me since he was 1 and a half, he even helped me gut my last 2, thanks for all the help and suggestions, a buddy has both a 223 and a 243 so i am gonna let him shoot each one and see his reaction

I am not saying you cant kill a deer with a .223, but why put your kid thru the higher risk. If your logic was solid than every cop would carry a 22 pistol but they dont...

Trust me I am not anti 223, I have several AR-15's. For me it comes down to money spent and risk mitigation. A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole and has a better chance of hitting something....

This argument is almost as old as the high fence / low fence debate...I am sure it will be debated on this board long after I am gone...

This is the same faulty logic you used in reference to "professionals". There is a difference in killing and stopping. DG guides shoot when an animal needs to be stopped, not just killed. Cops don't shoot just to kill people, but to stop them RIGHT now.

Bluedreaux

I got the new logic...I will shoot the deer in the knee with my AR-15 .223 to STOP him...I will also trade in my Micro Eagle 380 Auto Carry pistol for a Ruger 22 because I want to stop someone and not KILL THEM...

I think I will stick with my faulty logic and use my 300 Win Mag when hunting Axis in a few weeks...Oh cra$$ I forgot, I am going to be STOPPING the Axis with my Tenpoint crossbow...

Now I am really confused...

Call it what you will but thats what there magazine said not me.

Low recoil bullets means less powder, less muzzle velocity, and less recoil. That's why they call them low recoil. This bullets drop very quickly past 100 yards due to their low velocity.

Here is my 2 cents. It is clear that with good shot placement, you will kill a deer with a .223 or larger. However, if you make a less than perfect shot, you want to be making as big of hole as possible. This means you want a larger bullet, a soft point bullet, and you actually would like to have a slower bullet, which gives it more time to expand.

Usually this is a larger caliber. But, you do have to weigh how much the kid with flinch with a higher caliber bullet. So, get out there and let the kid shoot a .223, .243, .270, and .30-06. If he could shoot them all just fine, then there is no reason to take the .223, even though it will work. Take the biggest bullet, to ensure a kill.

And ILUVBIGBUCKS, yes, there are wounded animals at all calibers, but if I make a shot that doesn't hit the lungs, but just over them, then I am in no man's land. With a larger caliber, I make a bigger hole, and have a better chance at hitting the spine. Also, if you make a terrible gutshot, a bigger wound means more bleeding and internal damage, so you may find the deer 2 hours later as opposed to 2 days.

No you obviously don't get it. But rather than just say, "I don't want to use a .223", you insist on spouting random thoughts on "professionals" (which you still haven't explained), bragging about giving a Weatherby magnum to a kid who can't hit with a smallbore, and then drawing irrational conclusions about shooting bad guys with .22s and deer in their knees.

Your confusion about stopping vs. killing goes without saying.

so A .25 caliber is great for elk (900lbs)
but a .223 caliber is no good for a deer (150 lb animal)


Hmmmmmmmm.....

doesn't have to have more muzzle blast or recoil, have you read all the posts?

The 223 is just fine, there are many different loads out there that are designed for deer hunting in this caliber.the problem most of the loads for deer hunting have bullet weights heavier than 55gr and alot of rifles won't shoot them well.The light recoil/ report of the 223 is a benifit. It will be easier for the kids to learn to shoot.

Sorry, I should've used a quote box. I was referring to the guy to said that his son was pulling shots with a .223, so he's now shooting a .257 Weatherby.

It definitely does. But it happens way more with the .223. Take it from someone who runs dogs pretty much every weekend from October through December, then quite a few more till the end of February. On a side note .270 has been third on the list this year, but I think that is mainly due to it's popularity...there are a bunch of them out there. Whether you like the .223 or not (and I do) you have to realize that a larger heavier bullet does more damage, and allows for a larger margin of error. Also while my .25-06 is probably my favorite rifle, and I've had it longer than any other, I do like my big .30's too, and I assure you, I can shoot...spend lots of time and money keeping it so...mainly through a .223.

yea any day of the week and if was legal it would be a 22mag instead

For $7000 I bet I could find one tame enough to kill with a slingshot and dull rock.

probably could...I'd let you kill one of my cows for $7000, but why would you want to?

I have a 6 year old myself and a limited budget. I'm going to buy mine a .270 and go with the reduced recoil loads for the next few years. Once he is old enough he can step up to the normal loads and I won't have to buy him another gun. The gun can grow with him. Plus I'll take a 115 grain bullet over a little 55 grainer anyday.

Make sure to get a wooden stock on his 270. Synthetic stocks amplify the re-coil. I've got a nice used one for $375. Pm me if you're interested.

I know for a fact a 308 managed recoil shoots a lot easier on the shooter than a standard 243... we;ve done it for years with kids or women starting deer hunting. Beginners can handle more than you think, work them up to it, and it's not an issue... people are accustomed to seeing movies where people fly backwards when they shoot(or get shot), and it's just not the case...



As for the 380 vs 22LR comment, I'd rather have 10 rounds of 22 in a good pistol than 7 rounds of 380....

and I would MUCH rather have a woman or a kid that practices with a 22 pistol use it for defense rather than a bigger gun they were scared of and never practiced with...

Bluedreau

Obviously you know little about tact and etiquette. Not sure when giving your son a $350 Weatherby Vanguard 257 became bragging. Really no need for personal attacks on this forum.

Every guide or Hunting professional that I hunt with uses at least a 300 win mag. Hope that helps explain the professional question.

Like I said, I have several 223's. I just think a 30 cal bullet makes a bigger hole than a .223, thus giving more room for error. Same reason I think an Ak-47 is a better bugout gun than a AR-15.

Personally I would stay away from the 223 for deer, some states don't allow it for that reason(too small caliber). Texas allow any centerfire rifles. I would go towards a 243, 257, 260, or 7-08. These will all be a little lower recoil and big enough to get the job done. I know alot of people have killed deer with .22 caliber rifles, and again this is just my personal opinion.