The one i have is a pre ban model or is supposed to be according to a law enforcement officer.

It is not the same bullet as a 308, diameter and length are different. Its a short fat little bullet, not enough length to stabilize well. Historically, both on my level and everything I have read, says they are not very accurate at much of a range at all. Is it better than a stick, yes, but I'd lump it with the 223 and others as really not enough for deer, but capable in the hands of a good shot. Compared to the 308's I have shot, they are horribly inaccurate.

And I think if you will look back over the time I have been on here, while I do recommend the Barnes bullets, I don't recommend the calibers I use, and because I have been using the X bullets for over 10 years now, on everything from jackrabbits up, I think I am well versed in their performance.

Further, having several years experience with the Barnes and the big calibers, the doe was shot with a handload that was on the level of the Ruger No.1 45/70 loadings, no where close to 5000 foot pounds of energy, and I can tell you from experience that I have had both heart and lung shot deer and elk go farther when hit with the big guns than when hit with my 35 Whelen.

I don't really know for sure why you are trying to teach me something about bullet performance and shot placement, when all I asked was why you think FMJ bullets are such a bad thing, and I simply do not agree with that observation.

As far as your remarks about experience levels and such, I always try to recommend the normal calibers, ie 30-06, 270, 308, etc. and bullets such as the X bullets and Nosler Partitions and other premium bullets.

Not really sure what I said to get your hackles up, but I would be willing to bet that I have shot just about as much game as you have, under just about as many oddball conditions, and I have been well pleased with the results I have obtained.

My original statement is the same, I prefer FMJ's or hard bullets such as the X and Triple Shock Barnes that kill with out massive meat destruction and I normally only take heart/lung shots, but if I do have to take a shoulder shot I do not want to lose both shoulders due to blood shot or meat destruction. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

From my own personal experience, I'll have to disagree with the idea of using FMJ ammo on deer. Early in my hunting "career," I carried an old .303 Enfield, shooting military FMJ ammo that I got out of a barrel at Deep River Armory for a nickel a round. One of the first bucks I shot, I got a good lung shot at about 50 yds. He ran off, and the blood trail he left was almost nonexistent. I tracked him until after midnight before finding him. Entry and exit wounds were the same size, and visible only because of the blood around them. When I field-dressed him, I found that I had penetrated both lungs, but had not hit any bone at all. The bullet just whistled right through.

After that, I didn't use FMJ any more... Well, to be honest, I did use the military ammo a few more times, but ground the point down until I had exposed lead. Eventually, I did go to commercial SP ammo, and in my second year, the man who owned the land where I worked my summers felt sorry for me and bought me a brand new Marlin 336, and the old Enfield went to my uncle.

I've seen the same kind of wound during my military service, when one of the men in my unit took a hit in his side. Bypassed any major organs, didn't hit any bone, and after a minor field dressing, he was able to function for the 3 days remaining on the mission. Upon return to base, x-ray and blood tests indicated that the only follow-up treatment was a course of antibiotics. Not the kind of performance I'd want from a hunting round, as I'd rather lose a little meat than lose an animal altogether. Sure, with proper shot placement, the FMJ will produce efficient kills, but I've seen too many hunters who think hitting the animal at all constitutes proper shot placement, and I'd rather the sloppier hunters - and the good hunters who make a mistake - have a bigger margin of error. And no, my hackles aren't up, and I hope yours aren't either... I simply disagree, and I do have a problem with anything that increases the chances of losing a wounded animal and letting it suffer needlessly.

To each his own. I shoot premium bullets that give me complete pass thrus with little or no meat loss. I am not recommending them for any one else. Conversley, I do not recommend Ballistic tips or any of the other bullets that cause massive wound channels and don't always give deep penetration. I have lost 1 deer that I know I hit, blood and bone pieces found, but never found that animal, and I credit it to the rifle I was using that day, a 22 Hornet. The only reason I was using it was because I had killed a deer with the Hornet. After losing that one, I never tried taking one with the Hornet again.

This subject is going in a circle, simply because I do not agree wioth the premise of having bullets that cause the horrific, meat wasting wound channels, when a better constructed bullet going at a lower speed will do a better job along with leaving a good exit wound for trailing. JMO, and I ain't asking anyone to agree with it.

"I have lost 1 deer that I know I hit, blood and bone pieces found, but never found that animal, and I credit it to the rifle I was using that day, a 22 Hornet."

It just might be that the fault lies more with an underpowered cartridge than with an expanding bullet, don't ya' think?

I think if you will read the WHOLE post, you will see that I said that I had killed a deer with the Hornet previously, and that I stopped hunting deer with it after losing that one.

What I was trying to point out, is that I haven't ever lost any game because of the TYPE of bullets I use.

I still use a Hornet for Javelina, and with proper bullet placement it will kill a deer, but so will a 22 Mag. or a 22 Long Rifle if the bullet is placed correctly.

I don't recommend or use the Hornet for anything larger than Javelina or Coyotes or similar sized animals, simply because it ain't powerful enough.

All I am saying and have been trying to say is that I just do not agree with the "Massive Trauma" school of thought when I am selecting the bullets I use. I want something that if the PERFECT shot isn't presented, my bullet will drive on thru bones or a gut full of food and reach the vitals and exit so that I will have a blood trail if the animal doesn't drop on the spot.

I have been in too many hunting camps, both as a client and as a guide, where things didn't go perfect with someones choice of shots or ammunition and stuff like elk and moose and almost a musk ox, were either lost or chased for more than a mile and shot till they looked likebefore they were put on the ground.

The only bullets I ever recommend on here are the Barnes X Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, Swift A Frames, or other quality bullets, or hard cast lead bullets.

Unwad thy panties, O' great one! I did read the entire post, and reacted to what you said. I've hunted and guided my share of deer, elk, and javalina camps, and based upon my experiences, I simply disagree with your premise. You got a problem with that?? Perhaps the fact that you prefer to hunt with heavy ordnance is a factor in your bullet choices. Just a thought.

Panties aren't wadded - ain't nothing great about me or anything I do - all I have been saying the whole time is that I disagree with the idea about FMJ's not being good bullets. I use hard bullets in everything I shoot including Lora's 257 Roberts and my 6.5x55. I am not the one having a problem with someone disagreeing on this subject, I just don't agree with your assessment, do you have a problem with that????

Nope, but the laws of physics might.

Never studied any kind of law, bent the heck out of a bunch of them and broke some all to pieces, just never had the desire to study any of them.

Lets see, I guess I can put this in as a reverse poll.

All those that disagree with the use of FMJ bullets as a hunting round on this thread, = 2 at least.

Only person that will use a FMJ bullet as a hunting round, = Me.

Number of people that don't really care what anyone else thinks about the practice of using FMJ's as a hunting round, = me.

Number of people who realize and keep in mind that not all of us hunt game under the same conditions or want the same results from the ammo we are using, = me.

Number of people who have, on this thread, recommended that everybody needs to run out and buy all the Armor Piercing Full Metal Jacket Bullets and use them exclusively for their hunting, = NOBODY, including me.

People disagreeing with me is nothing new, nor is it anything I take real personal. People disagree with me all the time. I use guns that are too big to hunt whitetails, I use CA scopes that aren't any good, I don't wear the right pattern or amount of camo, I drive the wrong vehicle, I don't need to be using premium bullets, I use CA binoculars, I don't carry enough gadgets out hunting, etc. etc.. The list goes on and on.

Last time I looked however I am the S.O.B.(Totally self made, because my Mom and dad were really good people.), that pays for those big guns, buys the components and loads the shells, pays for the hunts(with help from Lora), shoots the game, skins it, processes it, and I am satisfied with the results I get.

Now, when someone else besides Lora is ready to step forward and start paying for any of the stuff I listed, then I will start being more agreeable.

Oh, no my knickers aren't in a bunch, and my medicine is still working. I am just stating my opinion on this subject.

To add to your poll... People who are willing to consider that what constitutes acceptable practice for one person might not be advisable for others: You get the picture.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, as are we. My main concern is that someone who is not a skilled and seasoned hunter might decide, based upon your opinion, to use FMJ ammo to hunt. After all, they can be significantly less expensive. And I, for one, would rather see such a person lose a little meat than for them to wound an animal and lose it, leaving it to suffer. And I've seen it happen more with bullets that don't expand than with what common wisdom would call hunting bullets.

You know, that is really funny, I have tried to paint that same picture about people recommending taking only head and neck shots on deer, or taking really long shots, instead of trying to get closer, or hunting right up till dark and being more worried about recovering antlers instead of meat, or recommending a 224 diameter caliber as the best deer gun going.

Anytime any of us write anything that appears on here, it is subject to being taken as gospel by someone and they will try the same thing, with disasterous results.

This is a circular arguement, you have your experiences and I have mine. I personnally don't like to see a lot of meat loss, and I have been in on some hunts where animals were lost with most of a leg blown off, because someone wanted a massive wound channel. I have also been involved in tracking situations where we knew the animal was hit, but never found any blood, becasuse all of the damage was kept inside because there was no exit wound.

Like anything else, this comes down to personal preferences and what our experiences have been. We have all done agreed to disagree on this subject. It is time for it to drop. I am going to use what works for me and what I am comfortable with and you will do the same.

Do you feel we should have a set policy for what we can or can't say on any given subject simply because it may not be what is agreeable with other people.

As for your comment about FMJ's being considerably less expensive, care to price out a 50 count box of Barnes 250 grain 35 caliber solids????

This thread was originally about the proposed use of a 7.62x39 as a deer gun. In that vain, do you or BigGuy, think that a 7.62x39 irregardless of the rifle it is fired out of or the projectile used is a good deer rifle, adequate in the right situation, or marginal under the best circumstances?

The only "policy" I agree with is that different people give their respective opinions, so that readers can make up their own minds as to which is most correct. My responses were not an attempt to silence your ideas by any means, but rather to offset the potential for engaging in what I felt to be poor practice for most hunters (as you acknowledge in your second paragraph).

I think you'll agree that when most people discuss FMJ ammo, monolithic solids (which can be pricey) aren't the first thing that comes to mind. Surplus military ammo is, and it can be had pretty cheaply.

As to the 7.62 being suitable for deer, I think that if a hunter acknowledges the limitations of the cartridge and the gun, there's no reason not to use it... just not with FMJ ammo!

And yeah... we disagree, and probably always will. I can live with that, and for the record, that disagreement wouldn't stand in the way of tossing back a beer with you, and wouldn't make me worry about hunting with you. We'd just both go along, silently knowing that the other was dead wrong, but probably deserving of the air we breathe, nonetheless.

I can live with that.

People on this forum that have killed a deer with a rock = me.

I realize that hunting with rocks isn't for everyone and they don't work in every situation but when you come upon a doe that was shot in the hindquarters, can't get up, the meat is rotting and covered in maggots, and it breaks your heart to see her like that, you do what has to be done.

PS. I wasn't hunting at the time and did not have a knife or firearm on my person.

No problem here. In that situation I would have done the same thing.

Same here. But the only time I don't have a knife on me is when I don't have anything else on, either.

Think what you damn well want to. I don't care if the guy is using a grenade launcher on that AK and blowing them up. Let the crap about what bullets I like to use drop. Your the one that keeps bringing this back up and I wouldn't agreed with you on that subject if you had a gun to my head.

READ MY SIGNATURE, THAT IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT YOU AND THIS SUBJECT.

Well, it has been almost a half hour since I responded to you, aren't you gonna get back on here and tell me how sorry a hunter I am for using what I am comfortable with.