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Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
#9015911
03/06/24 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 939
DustyArmadillo
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Posts: 939 |
Been eyeballing the Wilson arbor press seating die (with the micrometer)
Wondering if it’s worth the $250 ish dollars to completely change my seating process.
Yay? Nay?
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016001
03/07/24 01:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
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Posts: 19,255 |
It's one way to solve the OAL inconsistencies of some dies. Redding or Whidden micro is another...surprisingly so the Hornady micro top runs right close to those two.
Wilson chamber dies are the answer though...if ultimate consistency and reloading is the answer. Plus, you can take a cheap arbor press to the range to do seating depth tests. I'm a big fan but I'm not using it 100% of the time any longer.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016102
03/07/24 04:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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I'll bet a buck that Judd would also agree that it also depends on what rifle it is you're loading for. That die may be way overkill for your application. But, if you want the highest level of seating precision just for its own sake, then why the heck not?
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016234
03/07/24 03:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
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Don't take that bet RR is spot on.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016253
03/07/24 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200
Korean Redneck
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So one thing that annoys me the MOST during reloading is truly not getting super consistent seating depths across a whole 50-200 round session. I just got me a forster press and a fancy Redding die. It did better but for sure i can't simply seat and assume they are all within +/-0.001, or really i woul dlike 0.0005. For the F-class match i recently shot, i was SUPER meticulous about seating. about 70% was within the 0.0005", about 25% was between +/-0.001 to 0.003" (with most seated too long) and finally about 5% that was really off. Do these arbor presses do better, especially the basic press without the pressure guage? Btw, i do not pack my cases, usually below published maxes.
I'd really love to seat 100+ rounds and feel confident that they are +/-0.001" (or really 0.0005"). My current set up does not.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016279
03/07/24 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
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It will do what you are asking in my experience...I have over a dzn different seaters I've used. One thing worth mentioning...your caliper isn't accurate to .000X, they should really just remove that number completely...but I get your point and you aren't as much looking for a specific number as you are consistency to that number. The next level of analness (not sure that's a word) is a 21st Century hydraulic or K&M with a force pack arbor press (AMP also has a computerized version now that I have no experience with but know that some of the top Fclass open guys are using)...then you will see how consistent your necks are. Careful KR...you are dipping your toes into a very deep pool When I was shooting benchrest I did a bunch of testing around this and let's just say I would "sort" my loaded rounds by what the seater told me seating force was...in truth, what it measures is neck tension.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016318
03/07/24 05:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 33,979
Buzzsaw
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I like mine but agree its over thinking for many of us. A Redding Competition seater with the correct seater plug is just fine for 99% of us.
SPACE FOR RENT
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: Judd]
#9016584
03/08/24 03:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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It will do what you are asking in my experience...I have over a dzn different seaters I've used. One thing worth mentioning...your caliper isn't accurate to .000X, they should really just remove that number completely...but I get your point and you aren't as much looking for a specific number as you are consistency to that number. The next level of analness (not sure that's a word) is a 21st Century hydraulic or K&M with a force pack arbor press (AMP also has a computerized version now that I have no experience with but know that some of the top Fclass open guys are using)...then you will see how consistent your necks are. Careful KR...you are dipping your toes into a very deep pool When I was shooting benchrest I did a bunch of testing around this and let's just say I would "sort" my loaded rounds by what the seater told me seating force was...in truth, what it measures is neck tension. HOLY CHIT, Judd! You're the first person here that ever posted a comment about what neck tension actually IS (at least that I have seen). My brutha!
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016633
03/08/24 11:26 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,221
wp75169
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I do something similar but not near as sophisticated when seating. I shorten the handle on my press as far as it will go giving me less leverage. I had a What was that moment just this week. That one got moved to the fouling pile.
In my case this speaks more to my need for better brass prep than my need for better equipment.
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: RiverRider]
#9016714
03/08/24 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255 |
It will do what you are asking in my experience...I have over a dzn different seaters I've used. One thing worth mentioning...your caliper isn't accurate to .000X, they should really just remove that number completely...but I get your point and you aren't as much looking for a specific number as you are consistency to that number. The next level of analness (not sure that's a word) is a 21st Century hydraulic or K&M with a force pack arbor press (AMP also has a computerized version now that I have no experience with but know that some of the top Fclass open guys are using)...then you will see how consistent your necks are. Careful KR...you are dipping your toes into a very deep pool When I was shooting benchrest I did a bunch of testing around this and let's just say I would "sort" my loaded rounds by what the seater told me seating force was...in truth, what it measures is neck tension. HOLY CHIT, Judd! You're the first person here that ever posted a comment about what neck tension actually IS (at least that I have seen). My brutha! It's been touched on before. I remember because one person said there wasn't a way to measure it...don't know who it was and it doesn't matter, I just remember the conversation.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: wp75169]
#9016722
03/08/24 02:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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I do something similar but not near as sophisticated when seating. I shorten the handle on my press as far as it will go giving me less leverage. I had a What was that moment just this week. That one got moved to the fouling pile.
In my case this speaks more to my need for better brass prep than my need for better equipment. That's about where I'm at, myself. I just go by feel while seating, and since I don't shoot anything fancy at all I don't think there's anything to be gained by getting any fancier. Keeping case necks annealed does seem to help keep a pretty consistent feel when seating, and I do not buy cheap brass anymore. I do use quite a bit of Starline brass and it is less expensive, but I do not consider it to be cheap. It may not be as good as Lapua or Norma, but I think it is probably on par with Nosler---at least for MY uses.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: Judd]
#9016725
03/08/24 03:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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It's been touched on before. I remember because one person said there wasn't a way to measure it...don't know who it was and it doesn't matter, I just remember the conversation.
I may have been that person. And it's TRUE, generally speaking. For certain, saying "I'm using 0.003" neck tension" is just poor use of language that any engineer should regard as incorrect. Tension is a very specific thing that cannot be expressed as a linear measurement. The best measurement WE can make is just what you've stated---force required to seat the bullet. Even that is not a measurement of tension, but it's a pretty fair approximation and will work for our purposes.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016739
03/08/24 03:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,221
wp75169
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This is the answer. How deep do you want to dig?
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: DustyArmadillo]
#9016752
03/08/24 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200
Korean Redneck
Extreme Tracker
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Judd, For the record, I believe analness is a word. This stupid spell checker don't know nothing. I am trying to dip and then slowly enter the pool over the next several decades. It is a fascinating process with endless different avenues to apply my analness. I want to try a variety of other different kinds of rifle shooting eventually. But I'm sure that a part of me will always come back to f-class just for testing pure accuracy.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: wp75169]
#9016782
03/08/24 04:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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This is the answer. How deep do you want to dig? I see no term for tension (it ain't in there). BHN or ductility of the case neck does have a place in determining the net amount of tension, though. If you're trying to say that tension can be expressed as a linear dimension or measurement you're missing the point.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: RiverRider]
#9016786
03/08/24 05:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255 |
It's been touched on before. I remember because one person said there wasn't a way to measure it...don't know who it was and it doesn't matter, I just remember the conversation.
I may have been that person. And it's TRUE, generally speaking. For certain, saying "I'm using 0.003" neck tension" is just poor use of language that any engineer should regard as incorrect. Tension is a very specific thing that cannot be expressed as a linear measurement. The best measurement WE can make is just what you've stated---force required to seat the bullet. Even that is not a measurement of tension, but it's a pretty fair approximation and will work for our purposes. Now that's funny...see I told you I didn't know who it was and it didn't matter. The .003 example is somewhat the "reloaders" glossary of terms and I get what they are saying but also see your point. .001 will definitely have less neck tension than a .003 on a resized neck...but that's not a unit of measurement for "tension". However, it's about the closest we have besides seating force. KRedneck...I suspected you would understand that term . I never got into the short range br and I never got into fclass...I never liked shooting paper in competitions is the only reason why. If I was going to do a paper game it would've very likely been a varmint for score (VFS)...not sure why that game appealed to me but it has, just never thrown my rifle in that ring. The benchrest games that included clays, poker chips, steel just tickled my itch more so than the paper stuff and I really liked the 400-600y area the most.
Last edited by Judd; 03/08/24 05:03 PM.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: Judd]
#9016807
03/08/24 05:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,732
Mickey Moose
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...your caliper isn't accurate to .000X, they should really just remove that number completely... I've read this many times across many sites. I see the .000x and battle ignoring it entirely or using it to round up or down to .00x. What should I do? Or maybe it doesn't matter either way. I suppose you'll say entirely ignore it. No joke, I've thought about covering it with tape. ...21st Century hydraulic or K&M with a force pack arbor press (AMP also has a computerized version... You know my extreme nerdism and obsession with collecting data is battling with not buying the Amp setup that I 100% do not need.
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: Judd]
#9016813
03/08/24 06:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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The .003 example is somewhat the "reloaders" glossary of terms and I get what they are saying but also see your point. .001 will definitely have less neck tension than a .003 on a resized neck...but that's not a unit of measurement for "tension". However, it's about the closest we have besides seating force.
I believe you're precisely correct. If there was some kind of measurement (other than seating force) that took 'before' and 'after' diameters AND case neck condition into account we'd have something, but seating force is probably the best measurement we'll ever have available. Before & after diameters are perfect IF you know the case neck ductility and I'm not sure there's a practical way to measure that. Maybe the only practical way to quantify ductility would be to use seating force measurements and before-n-after diameters to derive it. I might be too much of a stickler about things like this, but in my field precision in language was essential. I don't always get it right myself, but I do try.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#9016833
03/08/24 06:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,255 |
...your caliper isn't accurate to .000X, they should really just remove that number completely... I've read this many times across many sites. I see the .000x and battle ignoring it entirely or using it to round up or down to .00x. What should I do? Or maybe it doesn't matter either way. I suppose you'll say entirely ignore it. No joke, I've thought about covering it with tape. ...21st Century hydraulic or K&M with a force pack arbor press (AMP also has a computerized version... You know my extreme nerdism and obsession with collecting data is battling with not buying the Amp setup that I 100% do not need. I don't even see it until someone here posts something about a measurement they took that way. It takes a micrometer to get to that level of precision. I have both the 21st and the K&M...we're so close you are more than welcome to test drive those before going the AMP route. I would venture to say if I was still playing the game, I'd have the amp. As River mentioned...on my hunting guns (which I what I'm loading for now) I don't believe I could shoot the difference in neck tension like I could out of a br rig. 100% correct RR.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: RiverRider]
#9016900
03/08/24 09:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,221
wp75169
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Posts: 12,221 |
This is the answer. How deep do you want to dig? I see no term for tension (it ain't in there). BHN or ductility of the case neck does have a place in determining the net amount of tension, though. If you're trying to say that tension can be expressed as a linear dimension or measurement you're missing the point. I’m saying that if you can’t control this then you can’t control any of it. This is the first step.
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Re: Any arbor press seating die supporters here?
[Re: wp75169]
#9017041
03/09/24 04:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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This is the answer. How deep do you want to dig? I see no term for tension (it ain't in there). BHN or ductility of the case neck does have a place in determining the net amount of tension, though. If you're trying to say that tension can be expressed as a linear dimension or measurement you're missing the point. I’m saying that if you can’t control this then you can’t control any of it. This is the first step. Aahhh...gotcha. Probably the most effective step you can take, too.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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