It seems that some are more serious about this than others with various bushing dies, neck turning, etc. I’m definitely guilty of going in on it and have Redding Competition dies with the appropriate bushing. I almost replaced more of my dies with these until I realized that they didn’t really save the world


My thought here is that neck tension doesn’t matter as long as it holds the bullet and is always consistent. Consistency I would think comes from using the same brass of the same lot number, brass prep, and consistent annealing. The die seems to have zero effect on consistency, be it a $39 Lee set or a $350 Redding set.

Am I thinking about this wrong?

no

I think that the closer a rifle gets to *perfection* the more difference you will be able to see when employing or omitting certain techniques. A precisely built custom will lower the noise floor to the point that you can see the effects of process changes.

I think the term "neck tension" is a poor descriptor. I won't complain about that too much since I haven't come up with a better term, but the word "tension" has a specific meaning, and what we're talking about is really just a differential of linear measurement...but we all do know what is meant. A much older term that might be useful is "bullet pull," which means "how hard is it to pull (or push) the bullet out of the neck." In my opinion, that can be pretty important because the initial movement of the bullet out of the neck sets up a chain of events or conditions, each condition dependent upon the immediate previous condition.

If you mess with QuickLOAD, you should be aware of the Start Pressure value. By default, that value is 3626 psi. It is meant to be used to compensate for proximity to the lands. If you seat *just* touching the lands then the value should be changed to 10,826 psi, which is an additional 7200 psi. The additional 7200 psi does not just add 7200 to the final pressure solution. It is often MUCH more than that. As I stated above, the state of things at one particular instant will have an effect on the instant following it, which effects what happens next, and so on.

This proximity to the lands thing is very similar to bullet pull and the effects of each should be equally important (if you are able to filter the effects out of the noise when you analyze results). I happen to believe that proximity to the lands, bullet pull (or "neck tension," if you insist), and the effects of primer choice and variances are the three initial factors that set up the entire burn curve, and then it becomes subject to the effects of case volume, charge consistency, and variance in bullet dimensions.

I do believe that bullet pull is very important to consistency. I also believe that the effects of bullet pull variance are easily submerged in the noise of all the other variances that cause shot dispersion. I do not shoot custom built rifles because I am more interested in what can be done with typical off-the-shelf sporter weight rifles, so I do not often turn case necks...I just buy decent brass up front and anneal frequently.

If I was shooting competition guns I would be more meticulous, but anymore all I wanna do is kill hogs.

Instead of providing an answer, I’ll provide a way to test it. Then you’ll know what I know It also depends on, how accurate do you want your rifle?

You have the bushing dies to see, buy different bushings and go shoot them…remove your expander or you won’t be testing anything except what does over working your brass do (worth noting). If you aren’t going to tune your neck tension, then what is the point of dies that take bushings?

Consistency is definitely key with neck tension though, no disputing that point.

So Judd are you saying that Lapua brass does not have consistent enough neck thickness to use the bushing and it be consistent? And yes, the brass with the bushing does not go across an expander.

I size then corn cob tumble so running the cases over a mandrel is just a qc step in case some necks are dinged or dented.

Any brass can benefit from neck turning, even lapua…but no, that’s not what I was saying at all.

Your statement was “ My thought here is that neck tension doesn’t matter as long as it holds the bullet and is always consistent.” What I’m saying is you bought the dies to test that theory, go do it. Don’t take anyone’s word for anything…buy different bushings and prove your hypothesis to yourself. I have and I’ve seen differences on paper.

The other cautionary statement…what I might test and prove in my barrel(s) might not align to yours.

I think neck tension depends on the cartridge but there are some heavy handgun loads that need a heavy crimp to hold the bullet in place so the powder can fully ignite/burn. This place I shot years a ago- an inside range. You had to buy their reloads because it was too dangerous for the range to allow customers to shoot their own reloads. I was shooting 45 ACP and their reloads were so poor the bullets were dropping DOWN into the cases. I pointed this out and how reducing OAL like that would send pressures up- they had no idea what I was talking about.
On rifle cartridges I reload- I never fuss that much, I've never noticed bullets moving around from rifle recoil. As a general rule I'd say a good crimp is best, I can't see any reason it would be a negative but I am always willing to learn. Good point not often discussed.

Dave pistol is definitely a different story. I use the Lee factory crimp die on all my 45 Colt loads and the heavy bullets loaded with H110 get a serious crimp indeed. My curiosity is surrounding rifle accuracy and is it effected by how much neck tension you have vs it just being consistent.

Judd I may get around to playing with that bushing die at a later date. That’s for the CTR .260 and it’s already shooting .3s consistently. That’s right, the $950 factory Tikka with an $800 Bushnell 3.5-21 outshoots my new rifle easily. That’s me driving both of them.

Nothing new there. It's quite common.

You got that right, the other CTR is Creedmoor and it shoots almost as well as the .260. It has a 24” barrel instead of the 20” on the .260. I think the heat gets to it a little sooner.

WP, what is your thinking on the new rifle's issue? Just a lemon barrel possibly?

I sure don’t have an answer for you. It’s a Bartlein, it could be a lemon I guess everyone makes one occasionally. It shot the 150 smk pretty dang good when I was getting the first 50 rounds through it. I used that and a powder I wasn’t using at a random load from the book.

Now I’ve got almost 200 more rounds though it trying to make the 162 A-Max shoot. Two different powders, seating depth test, nothing shoots as good as the smk did.

Next outing I’m loading up the rest of the SMKs with Varget. I don’t have anymore of the other powder and only used it to get rid of it.

If it does shoot the SMKs they’re not in stock anywhere.

Consistency in the bullet leaving the case is important even for hunting/plinking. The higher YOUR accuracy requirements, the more important it is. A Lee single stage and regular dies work for me. Shooting/hunting is not a high $ hobby for me.

On the lemon thing.... No one likes to talk about it but are there occasionally barrels from what are typically good choices like a Rem 700 where the barrel is simply not accurate? I realize reloading can make a huge difference as often a few hundred rounds might have to be put through the rifle. If you just can't get it to groups well AND your other rifles group fine- then just a bad barrel?

If you're up to that many rounds of Amax and not found something...stop shooting them, you're just wasting money at this point. Switch to another bullet.

I shot 500+ rounds in a Krieger 6.5x47 and at the end of the day it was just a turd...what I learned from that is to not throw good money after bad and cut bait sooner. I'm not saying yours is a bad barrel yet but what I am saying is stop with the Amax, it doesn't like them.

Good luck wp!

This x2. If nothing promising showed up with varget and an amax/eld at 20 thou off move along. Barring something funcky like a pressure issue from not enough nk clearance or crappy brass you should have found something to work with.

Brass is new Lapua prepped. Bolt closes like a dream.

It can close just fine too an extent. I have brass that will close fine but only allows low pressure loads due to thickness. It all goes great until firing. This is on a standard jgs 7mm-08ai reamer with lapua 308 brass necked down. The exact same setup with Lapua Palma brass runs perfect at all loads due to brass thickness primarily in the neck. One of the easiest checks is how large is the case neck id after firing? If you can't put a bullet back into the case without it falling through then you have a neck clearance issue.

Here’s a quick numbers sample of 3 standard 308 Lapua versus my go to of 308 Palma. A standard jgs 7mm-08ai reamer spec has a neck clearance of 0.316 after firing each into the same chamber specs are as shown in the photo. The standard Lapua 308 is at 0.3155 and the Palma is 0.3145 on average. Couple that with neck thickness of 0.170 for the standard versus 0.155 for the Palma you have a recipe for problems unless you’re into turning brass.

Dee I just did a quick check. I’m sitting at .004 difference from loaded to fired. I was using some of my cheaper calipers since the good ones were in the house but I got .310 loaded and .314-15 fired consistently over several cases. If anything I’d say it’s plenty loose. It does concern me that you had .3155 with the exact bullet and brass I had .310 on. Gotta grab my better measuring sticks. Thanks for the info, I would have not thought to look at that.

Edit: just got in from work and looked at that first. She’s giving me the stank eye so I better pay attention to her and do my further measurements in the morning.

Measure non sized cases when you do. That's where the numbers will matter most..... And I understand so good luck. lol

Sample of ten fired non sized cases are measuring .315-.3155”. All neck thicknesses are .015-.016”

Can I assume you left a zero out of your neck thickness or am I reading something wrong.


Unfortunately I don’t know what reamer the gunsmith used. We had agreed on a reamer then while chambering he dropped and broke the reamer (supposedly). He then purchased a new barrel and used a different reamer that he had. I’m pretty sure I was frustrated and didn’t follow up on that reamer information.

Yea I left a 0 off but it sounds like you should be good on nk clearance. I would definitely try a different bullet instead of wasting more.

What brand of Apple Juice is that?