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Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
#72061
06/28/06 04:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
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PHishTX
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Anyone heard or know anything about this? Quote:
TWS Intervenes in Texas Deer Breeder's Case
The Wildlife Society in conjunction with the Izaak Walton League of America has intervened as a 3rd party in behalf of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, who are being sued by a group of white-tailed deer breeders over whether deer held under Scientific Deer Breeder's Permits are privately owned. The Texas Chapter of TWS, although not intervening in the case, asked the national Society to help. With the addition of TWS and the IWLA as 3rd parties, the deer breeders will not be able to drop the suit, and the case will go to court in Travis County for a judge's decision.
TWS intervened after hearing of the case over concerns that the case may have national implications. The Public Trust Doctrine holds that some resources, such as water and wildlife, are of such great national value that they belong to the public, rather than to individuals. In Texas, hunters may pay for access to hunt deer, but are not actually purchasing the deer as private property. The decision to intervene in this case was made by an 8 - 1 vote of the TWS Council, after extensive discussion with the IWLA, the National Wildlife Federation, the Boone & Crockett Club, the AFWA, and the Texas Attorney General's Office. Bob Brown, President of TWS, commented, "This joining of TWS, a scientific society of wildlife professionals, and the Izaak Walton League of America, a hunting-conservation association, in support of Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, signifies TWS' support of on-the-ground biologist's in their efforts to manage our nation's wildlife resources."
What does this mean? Obviously...That TPWD is being sued, by breeders over who owns the deer? But Quote:
"....the deer breeders will not be able to drop the suit, and the case will go to court in Travis County for a judge's decision.
Could "things" be coming to a head? Like a big ZIT?
Phish-TX
PS I just hope the judge doesn't have a whitetail breeder operation. Or sit on the Commission
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: PHishTX]
#72062
06/28/06 04:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,397
Buck_N_Hook
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Well I know one of the guys that is involved in the suing. He and some other Breeders got together and stood up to TPWD and decided to sue the state not for money but for the State to recognize that the deer in their pens are their property not the States. Their stance is they paid for them, they feed them, they breed them etc and sell them, them without any state assistance.
"People have more fun than anybody I know!!!"
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: Buck_N_Hook]
#72063
06/28/06 05:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
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§ 1.011. PROPERTY OF THE STATE. (a) All wild animals, fur-bearing animals, wild birds, and wild fowl inside the borders of this state are the property of the people of this state. (b) All fish and other aquatic animal life contained in the freshwater rivers, creeks, and streams and in lakes or sloughs subject to overflow from rivers or other streams within the borders of this state are the property of the people of this state. (c) All the beds and bottoms and the products of the beds and bottoms of the public rivers, bayous, lagoons, creeks, lakes, bays, and inlets in this state and of that part of the Gulf of Mexico within the jurisdiction of this state are the property of this state. The state may permit the use of the waters and bottoms and the taking of the products of the bottoms and waters. (d) The Parks and Wildlife Department shall regulate the taking and conservation of fish, oysters, shrimp, crabs, turtles, terrapins, mussels, lobsters, and all other kinds and forms of marine life, or sand, gravel, marl, mud shell, and all other kinds of shell in accordance with the authority vested in it by this code. Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975. § 1.012. PUBLIC FRESH WATER. Any public freshwater lake, river, creek, or bayou in this state contained in any survey of private land may not be sold but shall remain open to the public. The Parks and Wildlife Department is authorized to protect the fish in public waters under rules as it may prescribe. Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 1405, ch. 545, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1975. Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1256, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1997. § 1.013. FENCES. This code does not prohibit or restrict the owner or occupant of land from constructing or maintaining a fence of any height on the land owned or occupied, and an owner or occupant who constructs such a fence is not liable for the restriction of the movement of wild animals by the fence. The existence of a fence does not affect the status of wild animals as property of the people of this state. Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1256, § 123, eff. Sept. 1, 1997. James
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: PHishTX]
#72064
06/28/06 06:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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It would help if you would where you got this information. Not doubting your word or anything like that, but it would be helpfull to know in order to research more into this.
Thanks!
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#72065
06/28/06 06:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,220
PHishTX
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Open...........Shut Good Stuff jeh7mmmag, I knew that was the law. Just never read it. Phish-TX ps ^^see previous ps ^^^^ >>>>>on edit<<<<<<< Curtis, I got it from the email newsletter of TXWild -- Texas Chapter of the Wildlife Society http://taex001.tamu.edu/mailman/listinfo/txwild
Last edited by PHishTX; 06/28/06 06:09 PM.
"If age structure is deemed to be valuable to management,...What percentage change in age structure or condition does TPWD recognize that it needs to detect in order to trigger a regulatory change? TPWD
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: PHishTX]
#72066
06/28/06 06:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 695
calls
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What happens if they win ... What happens if they lose ...
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: calls]
#72067
06/28/06 06:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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Calls,
For instance, I don't think you can get insurance on whitetails in a scientific breeder pen because they BELONG TO THE STATE OF TEXAS and not to the individual. I know a guy just up the road from me that lost a 4 year old buck that cost him over $120,000 to buy two years ago. The buck was 223" when it died. No insurance and the owner lost all of that money.
If the breeders win,they will be able to insure their deer for one thing. Some of these deer go for $100,000 or more. I personlly think this is one BIG reason why some of the breeders want this.
For instance, right now most breeders are in a CWD watch program. They have not found anything, but they are required to have so many deer that die, tested for CWD by a state licensed vet and the information is sent to the TPWD. If they found anything in any kind deer, TPWD would come in, kill al the deer, and not have to reimburse the breeders a penny.
IMO, they could actually do that anyway, I think. But to my knowledge I have only seen that happen where a breeder was proven to not be taking very good care of his deer in the pen. The state came and removed all the whitetail deer and the breeder lost all of the investment.
Phish,
Thanks for the link!
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: Curtis]
#72068
06/28/06 06:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
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Curtis. I have not read the entire document but this is the source. PARKS AND WILDLIFE CODE TITLE 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS CHAPTER 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS SUBCHAPTER A. PURPOSE AND POLICY CP below into your browser www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/ docs/PW/content/word/pw.001.00.000001.00.doc
�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: Buck_N_Hook]
#72069
06/28/06 06:54 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,058
HWY_MAN
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Quote:
Well I know one of the guys that is involved in the suing. He and some other Breeders got together and stood up to TPWD and decided to sue the state not for money but for the State to recognize that the deer in their pens are their property not the States. Their stance is they paid for them, they feed them, they breed them etc and sell them, them without any state assistance.
I would agree with them as long as they can prove they paid for the deer. Which would mean there would have to be some type of tagging or other method of permanently tracking the deer. This also means they would have to keep inventory, and pay tax's on that inventory just like i do my manufacturing business, as well as my cattle operation.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#72070
06/28/06 06:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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Thanks, but I know where to find that info and its correct. I was not requesting that from you or replying to your statement but rather to what the info Phish had put up.
I was aware that there was a lawsuit going on, but haven't read anything about it in a while.
Personally, I'm glad I'm not a scientific breeder and I just deal with exotics. I don't really care much for whitetails in with them and don't care to be a scientific breeder either.
It will be very interesting to see how this all turns out.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#72071
06/28/06 07:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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Most of the breeders do tag and track each deer they have in the pen. With the premises id issue coming about right now, it will be interesting to see what happens with the whitetails.
Elk and exotics and cattle and sheep and hogs will already be required to have a tag when being transported off the premises to auction or a different premises id's location.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#72072
06/28/06 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 22,269
7mag
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The demise of greed, power and money. I posted something very similiar to this on the "High Fence" thread a while back. What goes around comes around. Like I stated these guys are investing 100's of thousands of dollars, on big bucks, yes deer and money. What gets me is, some people will say, they have a right to sue, because of thier invesment. You can't look at any other way, we all loose in the long run. We loose to the groups who are against hunting, and more so if/when The State Of Texas has a lawsuit on thier hands. The Tax payers more so hunters as you and I will have to fund the legal battle, if it comes to that. Amazing how a vile of Deer Semen, and a big deer can bring Hunting in general, to it's knees in Texas. What will the State do?????? Give in??????Or show em this crap ain't gonna fly and make an example of them???? It will be interesting to see.
"Laugh with many, but don't trust any"
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: 7mag]
#72073
06/28/06 07:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 695
calls
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My question was meant to be more along the lines of what will it do to the hunting industry in general. If they win will it keep the overpriced hunts they offer alive. If they lose will it bring down the cost they charge(I doubt it). I see what your saying about insurance though and I can understand why they want it, I know I would. I was under the impression that they could already insure them though. I'm just wondering what impact it will have on hunting overall if any.
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: calls]
#72074
06/28/06 07:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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I was once under that impression but from all of the big breeders that I have ever talked to, I have yet to meet one that has one insured. There was a guy that told me that you could to it, but it was so outrageous that it was not pheasable.
Plus, I don't see how an insurance company could insure something that is not LEGALLY yours, according to the code posted above.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: calls]
#72075
06/28/06 07:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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Hunters paying the price effect the rates of what other hunters can't pay. Greed not so much for money but for the biggest deer.
If you don't pay it, they can't sell it.
I'd have to see how it changes the whitetail breeding industry first and then one might be able to determine what it causes the hunting industry to do.
IMO, I hope the state wins.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: Curtis]
#72076
06/28/06 07:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 22,269
7mag
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I am with you Curtis, I am sure you have figured that out though already
"Laugh with many, but don't trust any"
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: jeh7mmmag]
#72077
06/29/06 03:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,315
BenBob
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Would an animal raised in captivity be considered a wild animal? What about the buffalo? Same difference or not?
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: BenBob]
#72078
06/29/06 03:47 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,072
easton1025
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This "deer breeding" is getting out of hand...EVENTUALLY these deer will be hunted and killed for a hugge price tag..If they do deem these personal property,then what next?Are they going to be allowed to kill these deer out of season...I look at it this way...Just like stocks...You take risks..if a stock bellies up there is no insurance,just lick you wounds and walk away..If your deer dies,a risk you took..So if they want to insure these animals are the breeders going to guarante the health of its offspring...I wisk I could go back in time and find the first person who put up a high fence...He wouldnt geta chance to think twice..Because he would be "dead,dead,dead."
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: BenBob]
#72079
06/29/06 09:52 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 16,474
Crazyhorse
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I have been going thru everyones posts on this, and I agree with the idea that the state should win, on the surface, but lets look at the larger side of this issue. Land Owner Rights. Until someone comes up with a plan, whereby captive raised whitetails are permanently and visibly marked, so that they can not be mistaken for a wild whitetail, there will be a problem.
Also, if people quit paying the amounts that they are for the priveledge of shooting those animals it might make a difference, it ain't gonna happen.
Another point is, and I may be off a little here, but with the MLD system, landowners can start hunting whitetails on their property with guns, as early as the beginning of archery season. They are then able to hunt all the way thru most or all of Feb. Effectively, they have a 5 month gun season for bucks on their property.
There are so many aspects as to how this will eventually effect the face of hunting in Texas, that there never will be a clear winner. A system was allowed to get started, with the blessings of the state, and various hunting groups.
As for the question about the Buffalo, as long as the animal you are looking at, is not on the list of Texas Game animals, it is considered either livestock(elk, buffalo, exotics), or pest(feral hog). Whitetail deer, whether wild or captive born, are classed as game animals, and with no visible means of differentiating between the two is where the problem comes in.
If anyone can come up with a workable solution, it will be a miracle. JMO
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: BenBob]
#72080
06/29/06 10:34 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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Buffalo is an exotic in Texas. Same as Elk. Even though many, many years ago they both used to be native to Texas and roamed our state free.
Right now the whitetail from a breeding program is still considered a wild animal but the issue is unclear according to the breeders and the state. They both have different opinions. Thus the lawsuit.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: easton1025]
#72081
06/29/06 10:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,947
Curtis
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You going to have to go all the way back to the king of England on that one. Maybe even farther back in time. Large fences have been used for stocking animals for centuries.
Double Arrow Bow Hunting www.doublearrowbowhunting.comBow hunters welcome! Whitetail-Axis-Blackbuck-Fallow-Barasingha-Scimitar Oryx Located in Gonzales County. Visit our Facebook page for current updates!
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: PHishTX]
#72082
06/29/06 11:04 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 752
M16
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My take is if the deer came from Texas wild stock then the deer belongs to the state. If it was purchased from a breeder and did not come from wild stock then it is the property of the owner. Don't ask me how you can tell them apart. I don't understand how people can sell deer if they are owned by the state. But since the state has allowed deer auctions evidently they don't own them. I would just as soon see the state do away with the scientific breeder permit.
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: M16]
#72083
06/29/06 02:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,402
PKnTX
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The scientific breeder permits are a can of worms TPWD made for themselves. When what have been wild animals are taken under the wing of animal husbandry they have become domestic animals. No longer wildlife, they are property of whoever can prove possesion of them and will be a precedent for ALL deer in ANY enclosure. This will be the very END of deer "hunting" and bring about the total commercial selling of deer shooting that IS the goal of "breeders". Despite TPWD's 11th hour attempts to retain control of the "ownership" of deer, they long ago sold out to these operations and are now trying to crawfish out of the trap. Big suprise.
PK
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: Crazyhorse]
#72084
06/29/06 04:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 142
flaggert
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They already are marked, by their DNA. Is this a rat hole in which the breeder can eventually lay claim to a deer by virtue of its DNA? The state is gonna win. Too much at stake... wait a minute.. I need to adjust my aluminium hat... that's better.. now where was I?
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Re: Breeders sueing TPWD - Deer ownership ??
[Re: M16]
#72085
06/29/06 09:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,951
Bradbury
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Lots of breeders supply DNA background on deers bought that come outside state of Texas...You really need to have it when selling a deer to prove it is from what you say it is from....
Looking to buy or sell Real Estate anywhere? Let me know, I can help. Just email me steven.bradbury@cbdfw.com
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