So we can agree that on average spikes wont score what their forked antler classmates will ???

At what year?

More likely until they both reach full maturity. After that the spike could grown bigger than the fork horn born earlier than he was IMO.

Simple rule, don’t shoot yearling bucks. A two year old with an unbranched beam is pretty rare. If there are too many deer, shoot more does to bring the numbers down.

"could" but not probable.

No. You can't group them by "class". Some deer are born in Oct. Nov. You simply can't group a deer that was born then with deer that were born in June.

Balancing the buck:doe ratio? [/quote]

Give me a break! Where have you ever seen a hunted free range population of whitetail deer where bucks outnumbered does? I’m not saying it’s impossoble, but it’s highly unlikely. Even in unhunted populations, natural mortalities rates are higher for bucks than does, leading to numbers being skewed slightly to more does than bucks. [/quote]

I have seen high buck to doe ratios plenty of times. [/quote]

True or perceived? Oct a feeder is dominated my bucks, Nov does dominate.

Only place Non MLD- I have seen with a close’ish buck to doe is Webb country and panhandle, both had really high predation rates.

Webb country coyote populations are absurd never seen anything like it. [/quote]

In northern Val Verde county we always had fawn crops that were 75%+ bucks. Never seen it like that anywhere else. But during the 10 years we ranched there (on two different ranches), we always had more bucks than does. Even if we didn't shoot does. Just figured it was some natural way to limit population in an arid climate.

Interesting. My buddy who hunts out towards Eden sees the same thing. They always have far more young bucks running around then does, and they hardly kill any does.

Let me help ya'll then.

STX (who actually did have a firm grasp on most things whitetail), simply couldn't let go of his fatally flawed opinions on spikes. He was stubborn about things he had "learned", and just couldn't come to grips with the fact that he was 100% wrong about spikes.

But alas, the truth always prevails. And evidently he wasn't prepared to deal with the mental strain of facing the truth.

FWIW he did pm me just before he left, to let me know that he knew I was right. And I did try to convince him we could overlook one of his few flaws.... but he just couldn't bear the shame I guess.

It was a sad sad day for me.

Whut?!

It’s gospel!

Lol

‘‘Tis gospel for sure.

We dang sure can if we are saying on average they wont score what the forked antlered bucks do later in life. A couple months age difference doesn't matter any at 5 and 6 years of age.

The decision should be based on whether you want to feed a deer 5 years that most likely wont score what a forked antlered buck will at the same age. The answer to that lies in your particular management plan and what you do with your bucks (sell hunts/personal lease etc).

You should read before you post. Even your own statements. You are right in your highlighted statement. But you couldn’t be more wrong about what birthdate does to that bucks first two sets of antlers. ALL bucks are nubbins as fawns. What I’ve written and you’ve ignored is the FACT that if born late (late sept to dec), MOST buck fawns will be a short spike the next fall when they are one year old “yearlings”, not the classic 1.5 year old “yearling”.

Those 4-6 months difference in age make what might have been a 4 to 10 point first year buck, a spike.

I live with deer all year long and I’ve seen spikes grow into bucks just as big as any other buck multiple times.

Their genetic potential is impossible to judge if you judge them as spikes, because of how critical that 4-6 month delay in development is.

So yes, at 5 or 6 it won’t make a difference. But it makes a huge difference their first couple of years. And if you use that difference to judge a bucks potential you’re gonna make some big mistakes.

You are trying to take the exception and make it the norm. The argument of " I have seen spikes grow into bucks just as big" is just that...the exception. Im glad you live with deer because I guess you can tell which spikes do what the next year. Being a land baron and all I guess you keep all of your bulls until they are mature to figure out which ones you want to keep as breed bulls? I don't think so.

You try hard to take genetics out of the equation but it doesn't work that way. Facts are that a spike antlered yearling buck on average wont equal their fork antlered counterparts at maturity. Now if your management plan calls for keeping all of those to maturity and hope you get the exception that turns into a buck same size as its class mates that is up to you. You don't hurt a thing on your top end type bucks by shooting spikes each year.

I am not currently shooting spikes on my place but I very rarely see one. We are hammering the heck out of them by the time they are 3 for no brows, 3pt or less sides, etc. Everyone's plan and goals are different. On overpopulated areas it can really be very beneficial to get age classes in line with population goals.

So these fawns that are born in October and November are bread in April and maybe May? Sounds like a weird arrangement.

Was wondering about that myself. But I’m not the expert.

Yes they are. If you haven’t seen scrapes and rutting in April you haven’t been hunting or paying attention long.

Ooooooo.......K.

1)I’m skeptical.
2)I’m not sure I would include April-bred doe/November-born WT fawns as a factor in any overall management decisions.

I’m just a guy though. Not an expert. I’m sure you will point that out.

We still talking whitetails here?

We lease 1800 acres just north of Eden in Paint Rock, and the does outnumber the bucks 4:1. At least based on surveys and hunter reports.

If you haven’t learned by now he probably has pics, and so does STX.

Only one guy currently on this thread that has in past and currently has the ability to ear tags his deer at birth...

Good luck guys.

I'm assuming "therancher" is the one ear tagging them at birth? If so I wonder if that has any effect on why he has deer rutting in april/may commonly.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen.
Just like I don’t say a given deer won’t jump a HF every once in a blue moon.
Just like I don’t say a .223 won’t kill a deer.

IMO it is not sound to use the fact that there may be such a thing as an occasional April-bred doe/November- born fawn as part of any sound overall WT management practice. (I’m still skeptical it even happens. If it does, my thought is something real wonky is going on with the herd - like too much inbreeding, mix of incompatible genetics, etc.)
Just as IMO it is not sound to conclude HFs don’t confine deer/make any difference in deer movement because once in twelve blue moons a buck will jump one.
Just as IMO it is not sound to argue the .223 is an optimum deer caliber simply because it will kill a deer.

Taking “outlier” examples and applying them to broad questions is not the hallmark of the expert - it’s simply engaging in useless banter that sheds no real light on the issue at hand. IMO.