Spike to a Booner - Photos of Aging Deer

Thought this article following a deer through the years would be of interest.

https://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner

I have always liked this article/pictorial. It shows that if you just keep things simple and let deer mature, you never know what you will see grow.

I just visited a friend's place in southwest Texas. Free range ranchettes varying in size from 50 acres to 300 which he has. Has some friends "helping" with the upkeep and management. Killed a 2-3 year old 8 point that looked just like this buck at 2.5 and called it a cull. I kept my mouth shut as I didn't want to stir the pot and create an uncomfortable situation.

Thanks for posting this jeffbird.

That's why I refuse to shoot a yearling regardless of what's on it's head! You never know what genetics you are "culling" at that age.

Years ago in one of the mags there were pictures of a buck at the Mississippi state deer research facility that went from small 3pt with very small fork at 1.5 that turned into a 237inch non-typical. Now a 2.5 or older spike gets shot on my place if I can

Good read!

Yep, so hard on a lease to get age on them. Impressive. We finally had a guy pass on a nice 120 inch 9. If he can live, he will be very nice next year. Luckily our trigger happy guy already tagged out on a 3 year old 13 inch (my measurement was less than 13 inches) 10 pt and 1 year old 5 inch spike. He likes backstraps though...

Good article. Thanks for posting it.

Interesting and good article

Wonder how he is positive that is the same buck in pic 1. buck/spike at 1 1/2 and nice main frame 8 point at 2 1/2?
Think about it, he is on a 3,000 acre private ranch not high fenced in the NY Adirondack mountains which makes spotting and tracking non tagged deer even harder.

If I have not taken a buck that I deem worthy, I am still shooting a spike for it is hard to convince me that if you have two 1 1/2 year olds bucks, one is a spike and the other is a 4 or 6 point, that the spike could have the same potential as the 4 or 6 pointer.

Yea, I was actually thinking the same thing. Not sure why the deer was taken, but will address that later when he and I can sit down and chat.. heh I let 4 deer walk, one which I thought could have been taken, but I chose to err on the side of caution.

Technically, we could and maybe should take 10-12 deer a year on the ranch, but with people doing stupid crap, I would rather take 1-3 and see the herd improve than try to "cull" deer and have mistakes like that damage the herd.

I know we are having an impact, but each year we seem to have someone make a mistake.. one year it was a 4-point (taken on purpose), next year an 8-point that was too young.. then again the following year.

We are making headway, but it is frustrating.

Russ

I have seen that piece and enjoyed it. I have the same nagging doubts as you about the certainty of the first pic being the same deer.
Even so, no credible person ever says “always” or “never” when it comes to WT deer. They are individuals just like people. You just have to make your best decisions playing the odds with imperfect information. I agree with you - if most of your yearlings are spikes, those decisions are just shots in the dark, as it were. If most of your yearlings are branch-antlered, the decision is easier. Even so, not every decision will be the best one. Again, just playing percentages.

I know it can be very frustrating.

We have found that getting everybody together for a pre season meeting to discuss the type of deer we want to kill has helped a lot. We look at pics of what a mature deers characteristics are. We also look at younger bucks characteristics to make sure we don't kill those deer. There are still gonna be mistakes, but they rarely occur on deer that are 3 or younger.

Good call... we will see about implementing that idea. thanks!

R

So how do yal feel about no browtine deer?

Had a 1.5 year old 6 a few years ago (3 on beams no brows) next year he was the same but just marginally bigger, little spread short tines and a slick no-brow 6. Do you shoot them? Do you pass them? We shot him.

A few years before we had a no brow 6 at 1.5. At 2.5 he was the same but we never got around to shooting him. At 3.5 he was actually an 8 pt but I don't think his brows were long enough to score and while he was a pretty deer too look at with pretty decent tine length on his other points he was considerably lagging his peers that had brows. We never saw him again, not sure what happened to him.

My thinking on spikes, I try not to shoot them all. Looking at them you can see that some are tiny and were likely born late and some are same size as the average yearlings just don't have branched antlers, those are the ones I look to shoot. If they have a fork or split or nub etc. I'm likely to pass them.

Oh and I also do not believe that they know its the same deer from spike on. This has been posted on here before though.

All deer with no brow tine at 2.5 yrs old are fair game on my place.

Been a lot of tag studies involving spike bucks making it well over above average.

That podcaster dude that use to be on here,he shot a tag 150’sh deer that turned out to be a spike at birth. Was a LF STX study area I believe.

I have a friend in Tilden that had a spike go well into high 60’s

everyone has a "friend" that shot this or that.......

I want percentages of spikes, 4pt, 6pt, ect..... and average scores at 4.5, 5.5..... I don't care just pick an age as a standard

making decision for the future of anything based on exceptions rather than norms or what provides the best percentages is just ignorant....

Breeding a 230lb 170” Breeder buck to his offspring and then doing the same process to 60lb yearling hill country spike and comparing is hardly ground breaking. It gets truly ignorant when you state a percentage bigger as the normal amongst the spikes local peers, although that wasn’t their experiment

Ironically the only guys truly tracking spike progress are those trying to replicate Kerr studies findings, but can’t amongst local populations... the opposite gets proven..... now define ignorant

You know... I hate starting a comment with "with all due respect" because it usually is preceded with comments that lack any notion of "respect". So, I will try this:

Seriously not trying to offend, just making an observation....

When you put something someone said in quotes like "ignorant" or "friend" you are just saying, "bless your heart..." you get the idea.

Nothing he said in his comment appeared to be written to offend. Without proof to the contrary, demanding proof yourself just makes you look like a ticked off person that just had to comment to slam someone.

I do not know if spikes can grow up to be trophy deer. I too grew up with the idea that you shoot all the spikes you see as they are genetically messed up. That does not mean that what people see and experience did not happen.

"To every rule, there is an exception. There is even an exception to this one."

That was a rule I was told in 12th grade and it has stuck with me a long time.

I would say that if you disagree, go find your percentages yourself. Demanding them from someone as if to say you are right and they are wrong because they have not shown proof is just as "ignorant".

Again, I am seriously not trying to be mean... I just got online, read a post and went, "geeze.. what the hell got a burr under that guy's saddle?"

Me, on the other hand, I have zero problem telling someone what the burr is and then kicking it to the side.

Anyway, going back to reading.

Russ

Dr. James Kroll and another feller that know far more about deer management than you or me did a study just like that. Thier findings were that by age 3 and 4 the spikes had pretty much caught up to thier peers in the same age group. I sat through seminars showing thier findings as the data unfolded year after year.

I am curious....I hate to shoot a spike before it is like 3... never know if it will be something really.. hell.. even halfway nice.. but, the ones that have those really odd shaped antlers that start to curl, yea, those are sausage bait :P

R

yeah...... I read "Dr. Deer's" study several years ago... what a piece of chit. I ripped wholes all in his methods results where any high school science student could have done a better job. He clearly had a specific agenda and set his "research" up to prove his point... don't be that here again but thanks.

I thought the findings were that spikes kind of caught up, but they never really did catch up completely to their branched antler peers. Is that wrong? Been a long time since I read any of it. I think its plain to see every once in a while you have a deer that is going to be something special. In our instance they usually have a higher number of points than their peers from an early age, so the spike being inferior seems to parallel that.

not a philosophy for quality management.........

Its the most argued about thing in management.

There is no clear answer. Any objective source would say so. So it's up to each landowner/manager to decide for themselves.

To me, it's just common sense that if one has a pool of same-aged deer and some are bigger than others - most of the bigger ones are more likely to remain bigger than the others as they get older.

The vast majority of landowners (me included) have a lot more important issues to deal with than whether to shoot spikes or not.

Russ, thats my point...... I wasn't trying being a dck you'd know if that was the case. my point was that whenever someone bring up a spike to a booner its one in a "million" that the person bringing it up is the one who shot it giant buck that used to be a spike.

I wasn't inferring that BOBO's friend didn't exist or that he was lying....... its just so rare that the occurrence of the "spike/giant and hunter only referred to as I read it.... or so and so's friend or my friend are usually the case...

There are tons of examples of it out there if you look. In my bubbies case his ranch is fenced, so he has had the means and ability to tag and or isolate deer.

The deer cable took is part of a study that I don’t know if it’s published yet.

Let’s change the conversation to do you think a random hill country deer can compete with a documented Stx stud.

Or how about playing by the numbers, not what one deer here did or one deer there did... Do fork antlered (non spikes) typically grow to be better higher scoring deer than their spike antlered peers?

We shoot 2.5 year old deer with no brow tines. No yearlings are harmed unless its a doe and I need a bacon wrapped fillet.

http://www.buckmanager.com/2009/01/21/buck-management-whats-up-with-missing-brow-tines/

compete how.....? inches are inches no mater where they come from.



Redchevy and I all ways butting keyboards although in this particular instance we seem to be in agreement. YES, everything is about numbers..... number of acres, numbers of hunters, number of deer, gallons of water.... which is why I choose not to waste a single resource on poor numbers/ outcomes.

See, we don't have to but heads all the time

Well, I don't hunt antlers just meat so... don't care one way or another. All I know is "never say never". Anyone that is too far to either end of the spectrum just cannot approach anything with an open mind.

Russ

If inches are comparable then we need to cull entire populations and restock.

I didn’t need Kerr to tell me an infant mason county spike can’t compete inches to inches with an already proven 170” Webb country breeder buck.

What’s next comparing Terrell county mule deer to Sonora Mex. breeder buck?

There are two things more relevant to a deers first rack than genetics when comparing him to other bucks born the same year. One is when the deer was born and the other being nutrition. Some fawns are born 60 days later than others.

I have done an about face in regards to shooting spikes. Early in my career I believed they were genetically inferior and had no qualms about shooting them. I am a low fence guy and never had the ability to track what would become of one as he matured. Some years ago the unique opportunity was dropped in my lap. We noticed a year and a half old spike and he was white. The word went out for nobody to shoot "Whitey". Whitey was put on the shoot list at age 6. He was a 20" wide 160" 10 point when he was harvested. I might add the lucky hunter who took him did a full body mount. That lone incident caused me to reevaluate my position and I no longer shoot young spikes. My simplistic conclusion from that lone case is that deer are like people. Some are slower to mature than others and some just don't have it genetically. We now wait till age 4 to cull.

Excellent information, thank you for sharing that.

Antlers first, meat later

you are rambling... and making any logical comparison.... a spike from any region will not compete w a 170" deer from any region.......

That’s my point. All this spike is inferior is based on just that. Kerr study used a hill country spike and documented STX breeder deer.

Here's something that no one has been able to adequately explain to me, and I'm real curious: For many other species of deer, the 1.5 yo bucks have spikes their first year. Fallow deer, Elk, etc. These deer go on to produce major antler growth. Why is the WT so different that all 1.5yo spikes are inferior?

If I owned a ranch and had 20 1.5 yr old bucks and 18 of them were fork horns or better and 2 were spikes id shoot the spikes to give the fork horns or better less competition for food.

It really depends on the area which has that number of deer, carrying capacity, age structure, and overall availability of food, water, cover, hunting pressure (and number of carnivorous deer eating Roadrunners. )

There are some places where 18 would be 17 too many, and other places where leaving all 20 would be a good plan. There are many other factors that need to be considered, but overall, keeping the finger off the trigger until they are 3.5 is a good starting point.

never did i reference the Kerr study, I'm not interested in saving exception or even waiting to see one develop...... now w/ that said, should I loose 95% of "my" deer to anthrax on my LF ranch, yeah spikes will probably get a pass for a bit but not long...... but that would be square one...

When we met with our local TPW biologist this year he said to shoot spikes. We are an archery only lease so our harvest is quite a bit lower than a gun lease. I sat in the stand last weekend watching some good looking 1.5 year old bucks with 8 and 9 points. I cant help but think these are the deer we need to protect. If I see one of the two spikes I have on camera I may let the air out of one if given an excellent shot opportunity.

Great article. Makes me think most of us have no clue when it comes to aging deer or projecting a bucks antler growth.

They aren’t. But someone doesn’t want to admit tax payer dollars went out the window

So what other study replicates Kerr’s belief on spikes? Where did your spike beliefs come from?

If your management program gets to the point you HAVE to shot spikes you didn’t have a management program.

What are you really accomplishing killing a yearling spike that couldn’t be accomplished by shooting a doe instead?

Where is STX Hunter when you need him

Lol said that to myself a few times too

Balancing the buck:doe ratio?

hummm that is quite possibly the worst statement you have used to make your point....

Kerr study may have had its flaws... but it provided a jumping point for other studies and practices to be implemented.... studies I have are my own on two ranches one is a finished product 20+ years in the making and the other is in year 6. Two different geographic location Zapata Co and Kinney Co. Thing is very few people have the patients to get through the first 5 years........ when in all likely hood you wont be shooting any "trophy" deer.

What kind of practices? You mean you can cull genetics to get hill country ranches to 200,220,230,240”? Really so you don’t need importation, breeder releases, DMP releases?



My old Oklahoma ranch was producing 170-200” when I essentially sold out. It took me 7 years to get age class back so that genetic potential had the opportunity actually express itsself. Eliminating age classes is
Meaningless if you have the resources to support them. Management is about affording your self the opportunity to take chances. All you are doing with not hammering out a yearling age class is giving yourself
the ability to have a better idea on how a yearling buck will progress.

You can not change LF genetics via culling, Stop culling and see what happens.

Culling means you are no longer feeding it, doesn’t mean it’s genetic tree has been removed from the landscape, nothing more nothing less

All you are doing is talking about only carrying over what you consider the exception, which is fine, but you are still culling and will continue to have to cull. You are simply impeding expression of one set of deer and fostering it in another. Not eliminating genetics.

The success in management isn’t what differing successful programs do different on spikes, it’s what the have in common.

On top of that what you are truly suggesting doesn’t exist for vast majority of leases, they don’t have the tag resources

I think its safe to assume that many areas of the state are over what is generally accepted as carrying capacity, therefore I think culling is a good thing.

If its good for high fence trophy management or livestock its good for low fence its just not as effective, but shouldn't hurt a darn thing provided you have enough deer in the first place reference above.

Absolutely, that’s why I said if you “have to” cull spikes you didn’t have a management plan. If you have to heavy cull and have already cleaned out age classes, and still over CC and I can’t kill any more does, I would painfully start killing yearlings bucks. .

By the same line of thinking, I'm guessing most LF areas of the state aren't anywhere near ideal B:D ratio, yet still whack tons of spikes. No big deal, to each their own. Just have to realize that there is no guarantee that spike won't grow into a pretty decent buck. Will be be top 10%? Maybe not. But most LF hunters seem pretty happy to shoot top ~40% of their bucks so it may be worth seeing what they develop into, especially if the ranch is short on bucks overall. If he still sucks as a 3.5yo whack him pre-rut and get more meat out of the deal.

Shoot 'em, don't shoot 'em, to each their own. It's legal, have fun. But, very few things are 100% one way or the other with deer and personally I think it's a mistake to call all 1.5yo spikes "inferior."


Ahh the old spike topic. Always a reliable one to generate a few pages and go round and round! You'd think we'd learn.

One day I will, but didn’t today

Yup....this ain't that day......

please..... I have never stated you can control or influence genetics the most think you can... even in a high fence. you can never get rid of....xyz genetic. If i have to cull less from the older age class then I doing my job. The is nothing a hate more than seeing 4.5+ 6pt, when you see that and you screwed the pooch years before same w big old 7pt... and some would say 8's. Different folks can draw the line where they wish.

I'm not going to eliminate an age class and I'm not going to waste resources for 3 years on deer I could have removed earlier on.

It can be a tough row to hoe when making decisions on LF properties with Antler Restrictions in place. You see two 1 1/2 yearlings, one is a 4 point the other is a spike. Common sense would deem the 4 point has better genetics and watching him walk away is a pleasure. On the other hand you see the spike and start thinking about all of the 3 1/2 or older bucks that have tall skinny racks that you would love to cull out but cannot because it is against the law (AR). So what small to average size lease can afford to take that chance if you are really trying to manage the land for better quality deer.

It is unfortunate that you cannot tell the possible genetic difference in does unless it is just the physical size, would love to be able and say that doe is the equivalent of a spike or cull buck and

You know Stub, that is a good point. We are not in an AR county (and are MLD anyway) so I hadn't considered the fact that he might be legally "off the table" down the road if you let him walk. That adds something to it for sure.

Good discussion.

IMO the facts remain that: 1) the definitive answer is truly not known and 2)for 98% of the places there are a lot bigger fish to fry than whether or not to shoot spikes anyway. So I don't think it's a huge or impactful issue for the vast majority.

I have no illusions that I am really "managing" my place beyond some very basic things: providing sanctuary areas, providing areas deer like to come to with food plots, and laying off the trigger. Everything else is just messing around the edges - which is all that is even possible for 400 acres.

For the sake of comparison, can anyone share a series of photos that show the development of a young buck that wasn't a spike? Do we set the benchmark for measuring the long-term potential on the minimum standard for a young buck or a higher one?

The source is so much scorn...

Link

"3. Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition. The time of birth of a deer does not change its genetic potential. A deer with spike antlers could be born in May while a 6-point yearling may be born in July."

Then you are killing them for a perceived but unproven reason. You are just drawing a line in the sand saying I only have x amount of money to feed x amount of deer. I get it if you have the true resources to manage for that a exception

Do you kill every yearling that’s not 10 pts or every 5.5 year old that’s not 180”+

I'll never shoot another spike no matter how old. Without them this thread would be boring.

‘‘Tis the season.. just wait until Jan 15th

"3. Early or late birth does not affect antler development if deer receive adequate nutrition. The time of birth of a deer does not change its genetic potential. A deer with spike antlers could be born in May while a 6-point yearling may be born in July."

In other words, the smaller buck born later in the previous year has just as much potential to grow a first set of branched antlers as the somewhat larger buck born a few months earlier. The fact that larger yearlings are only spikes should not be ignored.

Boats and ho3$ i mean spikes and does.

I talk about the "math of deer management" with as many ranch owners around me as I can, more of an attempt to help "my" herd as much as "theirs". Most do not get it, and the "math" is not even close to perfect, but every endeavor starts with the most basic idea...

"I am going to TRY"

330 acres and we should be able to support 1 deer for every 10 acres, I am told. What I try to do is use that as a unit of measure, not as a fact because, as this discussion shows, FACTS are what people perceive them to be (and that is NOT a slam on anyone).

So, I am going to say 320 acres because it is so much easier. We should be able to support 32 deer, at a a 1:1 ratio, that is 16 of each. If the world is perfect, everyone of them get along, bring roses, chocolates, talk dirty.. we could have 16 fawns.

Okay, very simplistic.. but my point is...most the ranches around me are around 100 acres.

They can support 10 deer.

If they support 10, and drop 5.. even if not a single one is a spike, they are all awesome... they still can only support 10 deer... maybe times are lean and the young ones grow up and move away from the house.. BUT

Here it comes...

BUT.....Bill owns the ranch. He shoots a buck. He lets a kiddo shoot a doe. He wants to hunt more and so invites a friend and they shoot a doe.

Anyway, you are all smarter at this than me, this is a perfect world scenario and so many factors are assumed, but if you throw in a couple spikes and the goal is to eliminate those and someone shoots those plus "a really nice buck they have been watching for a while".

Managing deer HAS to be about so much more than whether any study says to shoot culls, spikes, numbers. In this day and age, it is harder and harder to own a ranch large enough that YOU can control anything.

Real management means more about talking to your neighbors and seeing what they have done, working with them, letting good deer walk, and yes.. I wait till a spike is 3yrs old because if I am after meat...I'd rather shoot a large spike and be done, than shoot a small one and want/need more meat and shoot another one.

Anyway, rambling.. long day.

Russ

I think you read that wrong.

If I were not away from my computer for several more days I would show you many studies to contradict what you just stated. Not opinion but actual studies.

You mean they put Refrigerator Perry and Muggsy Bogues in a pen void of natural food(because there is no such thing as drought or growing seasons), feed them nothing but protein and came to the conclusion Muggsy wasn’t as big as Refrigerator Perry......ground breaking.

Chital what are you smoking buddy There are not any pictures in this thread

Very first post.

We see deer born May-Oct. I would think a deer sprouting hit first antlers the next May as a 12 month old compared to the one spouting antlers as a 7 month old would be significant. Some even see fawns born into November.
I have dropped the half year thing (3 1/2 of 4 1/2) it doesn't work for us, I just use 3 or 4 for years. With most of our fawns being born in the late summer, maybe 1 1/4 year old would be better

Give me a break! Where have you ever seen a hunted free range population of whitetail deer where bucks outnumbered does? I’m not saying it’s impossoble, but it’s highly unlikely. Even in unhunted populations, natural mortalities rates are higher for bucks than does, leading to numbers being skewed slightly to more does than bucks.

I have seen high buck to doe ratios plenty of times.

Ive never seen a high buck to doe ratio outside of a high fence. Yes I have sat at a feeder and seen 1/2 a dozen bucks and no does, but that has nothing to do with the ratios.

I wish I really knew what the buck/doe ratio is in my area.

Trail camera pics and hunting sure make it seem pretty high over the past few years.

Ah from the link Sorry Chital unless you were smoking something and having fun

True or perceived? Oct a feeder is dominated my bucks, Nov does dominate.

Only place Non MLD- I have seen with a close’ish buck to doe is Webb country and panhandle, both had really high predation rates.

Webb country coyote populations are absurd never seen anything like it.

So I guess the only thing we are sure of on this post is there is no way to tell if the first couple years of pics are the same deer...

This topic is why I gave up hunting deer in Texas. I'll stick to elk and pronghorn out west. The only rack I truly care about isn't on a deer anyway

And people on here are very opinionated and love to argue.

Texas is weird, they declare war on spikes while most states out west protect spikes in elk herds

Apples and oranges.

1)Spike elk are (almost) always yearlings- most spike WTs are a year and a half (yearling WTs are (almost) always button bucks). There are (almost) no branch-antlered elk yearlings (year and a half old elk are (almost) always 4x4 or better) - there are lots of branch-antlered 1 1/2 yr old whitetails.
2)There are about a million elk in all of North America. There are 5 million plus WTs in Texas alone - protecting populations is almost never a goal with TX whitetails, it’s strictly about management for growth.
3)Lots of western states/units allow elk spikes to be taken.

IMO allowing WT spikes to be taken in TX is not tantamount to “declaring war” on them. It’s just a simple recognition that there are plenty of deer in this state (the most in the country by a long shot), so allowing them to be taken is not a big deal one way or the other.

Reading comprehension......

Not apples to oranges when you comment on not wanting to hunt TX and Whitetails because of specific “management practices” and infer lack of those practices for your reasoning to hunt elk....

I’m sure he is specifically hunting or not hunting Utah or Washington because of their spike only units .. just about every state with an OTC elk tag has antler restrictions, more so then not. I guess it’s feasible you would drive through OTC elk states just so you could hunt spikes or be unrestricted


Texas did declare war, they have county wide management plans based off spike harvest and they have an entire season dedicated to spikes

Go troll else where, please

Yal should learn how to play nice with each other.

I was nice. I put a smiley face and said please.

Whatever, your just as much a troll as he is.

Pot meet kettle.

I’m no deer expert, but I’m almost 62 years old. I’ve hunted all regions of Texas, owned and managed ranches in central, west and south Texas. I’ve taken and perused easily over a million game cam pics.

I honestly do not believe I’ve ever seen a spike over 1.5 years old. Not saying they don’t exist. Just saying I believe every one I’ve ever seen was a yearling or less.

I for one am glad they have the additional 2 weeks for spike and doe. Gives me another opportunity to fill the freezer if I miss out on a target buck And yes I like culling spikes but only declare war on pigs and yotes

I’m simply not sure why their is any hand-wringing over spike harvest in Texas, that’s all.

Texas is easily the most pro-“selective management” WT state in the country (ARs, MLD, and even HF). With the largest deer population in the country. So are TX hunters as a whole.
As a result, the opportunity for nice bucks is at an all-time high. ARs are working fine - the “one unbranched antler” tag has not affected matters much one way or the other. (Some say it helps, some say it hurts - but it’s all dancing on the head of a pin in the great scheme of things.)


TX also has the most liberal allowable harvest limits of any state in the country (2-4 buck tags and 2-4 doe tags almost everywhere). That doesn’t mean we are “declaring war” on WTs - it’s just a recognition of the reality that we have a pot load of deer here and, thus, a pot load of opportunity. Almost no one uses all of them. “Declaring war” would mean only spikes can be shot or only bigger bucks can be shot after a spike tag is filled (as some states do with doe tags.)

If you don’t want to shoot them, don’t shoot them. If you do, do. There’s no crisis going to ensue either way.

I’m sorry you see my posts as trolling. One, they are responsive and on the subject. Two, I would post exactly the same responses to any post with the same content because IMO, hyperbole and irrelevant comparisons for the apparent purpose of implying a problem that doesn’t exist serves no real purpose.

I don't have near the years or ground covered, but I'm 99% sure I have shot a 2 year old spike. Every indicator I have suggests that he was 2, teeth, weight. I shot him out of a group with 4 other spikes and he was noticeable larger boddied than any of them.

Just an FYI. 1.5 yr old deer are yearlings. Almost all nubbin bucks are fawns born that early summer.

Carry on.

spikes taste better

Nubbins are even mobetta

You are correct. It’s a usage deal with us over here - we often (incorrectly) call fawns “yearlings”.

Consider the above post amended.

And I’m not saying you didn’t. There are no hard and fast rules. However, I feel real comfortable saying that spikes over 1.5 yo are almost as rare as hens teeth.

While you might well have killed a 2.5yo spike, what I see in the deer I live with and see daily, is spikes that vary greatly in size based on what month they were born in the previous year. My bucks that are born in October-November are very small compared to bucks born in June and July. And that difference carries over to their yearling year. So, it’s possible you were looking at a group of spikes that were only a few months apart.

I have one here now that’s spots are just now fading. He will only be a nubbin next year.

So we can agree that on average spikes wont score what their forked antler classmates will ???

At what year?

More likely until they both reach full maturity. After that the spike could grown bigger than the fork horn born earlier than he was IMO.

Simple rule, don’t shoot yearling bucks. A two year old with an unbranched beam is pretty rare. If there are too many deer, shoot more does to bring the numbers down.

"could" but not probable.

No. You can't group them by "class". Some deer are born in Oct. Nov. You simply can't group a deer that was born then with deer that were born in June.

Balancing the buck:doe ratio? [/quote]

Give me a break! Where have you ever seen a hunted free range population of whitetail deer where bucks outnumbered does? I’m not saying it’s impossoble, but it’s highly unlikely. Even in unhunted populations, natural mortalities rates are higher for bucks than does, leading to numbers being skewed slightly to more does than bucks. [/quote]

I have seen high buck to doe ratios plenty of times. [/quote]

True or perceived? Oct a feeder is dominated my bucks, Nov does dominate.

Only place Non MLD- I have seen with a close’ish buck to doe is Webb country and panhandle, both had really high predation rates.

Webb country coyote populations are absurd never seen anything like it. [/quote]

In northern Val Verde county we always had fawn crops that were 75%+ bucks. Never seen it like that anywhere else. But during the 10 years we ranched there (on two different ranches), we always had more bucks than does. Even if we didn't shoot does. Just figured it was some natural way to limit population in an arid climate.

Interesting. My buddy who hunts out towards Eden sees the same thing. They always have far more young bucks running around then does, and they hardly kill any does.

Let me help ya'll then.

STX (who actually did have a firm grasp on most things whitetail), simply couldn't let go of his fatally flawed opinions on spikes. He was stubborn about things he had "learned", and just couldn't come to grips with the fact that he was 100% wrong about spikes.

But alas, the truth always prevails. And evidently he wasn't prepared to deal with the mental strain of facing the truth.

FWIW he did pm me just before he left, to let me know that he knew I was right. And I did try to convince him we could overlook one of his few flaws.... but he just couldn't bear the shame I guess.

It was a sad sad day for me.

Whut?!

It’s gospel!

Lol

‘‘Tis gospel for sure.

We dang sure can if we are saying on average they wont score what the forked antlered bucks do later in life. A couple months age difference doesn't matter any at 5 and 6 years of age.

The decision should be based on whether you want to feed a deer 5 years that most likely wont score what a forked antlered buck will at the same age. The answer to that lies in your particular management plan and what you do with your bucks (sell hunts/personal lease etc).

You should read before you post. Even your own statements. You are right in your highlighted statement. But you couldn’t be more wrong about what birthdate does to that bucks first two sets of antlers. ALL bucks are nubbins as fawns. What I’ve written and you’ve ignored is the FACT that if born late (late sept to dec), MOST buck fawns will be a short spike the next fall when they are one year old “yearlings”, not the classic 1.5 year old “yearling”.

Those 4-6 months difference in age make what might have been a 4 to 10 point first year buck, a spike.

I live with deer all year long and I’ve seen spikes grow into bucks just as big as any other buck multiple times.

Their genetic potential is impossible to judge if you judge them as spikes, because of how critical that 4-6 month delay in development is.

So yes, at 5 or 6 it won’t make a difference. But it makes a huge difference their first couple of years. And if you use that difference to judge a bucks potential you’re gonna make some big mistakes.

You are trying to take the exception and make it the norm. The argument of " I have seen spikes grow into bucks just as big" is just that...the exception. Im glad you live with deer because I guess you can tell which spikes do what the next year. Being a land baron and all I guess you keep all of your bulls until they are mature to figure out which ones you want to keep as breed bulls? I don't think so.

You try hard to take genetics out of the equation but it doesn't work that way. Facts are that a spike antlered yearling buck on average wont equal their fork antlered counterparts at maturity. Now if your management plan calls for keeping all of those to maturity and hope you get the exception that turns into a buck same size as its class mates that is up to you. You don't hurt a thing on your top end type bucks by shooting spikes each year.

I am not currently shooting spikes on my place but I very rarely see one. We are hammering the heck out of them by the time they are 3 for no brows, 3pt or less sides, etc. Everyone's plan and goals are different. On overpopulated areas it can really be very beneficial to get age classes in line with population goals.

So these fawns that are born in October and November are bread in April and maybe May? Sounds like a weird arrangement.

Was wondering about that myself. But I’m not the expert.

Yes they are. If you haven’t seen scrapes and rutting in April you haven’t been hunting or paying attention long.

Ooooooo.......K.

1)I’m skeptical.
2)I’m not sure I would include April-bred doe/November-born WT fawns as a factor in any overall management decisions.

I’m just a guy though. Not an expert. I’m sure you will point that out.

We still talking whitetails here?

We lease 1800 acres just north of Eden in Paint Rock, and the does outnumber the bucks 4:1. At least based on surveys and hunter reports.

If you haven’t learned by now he probably has pics, and so does STX.

Only one guy currently on this thread that has in past and currently has the ability to ear tags his deer at birth...

Good luck guys.

I'm assuming "therancher" is the one ear tagging them at birth? If so I wonder if that has any effect on why he has deer rutting in april/may commonly.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen.
Just like I don’t say a given deer won’t jump a HF every once in a blue moon.
Just like I don’t say a .223 won’t kill a deer.

IMO it is not sound to use the fact that there may be such a thing as an occasional April-bred doe/November- born fawn as part of any sound overall WT management practice. (I’m still skeptical it even happens. If it does, my thought is something real wonky is going on with the herd - like too much inbreeding, mix of incompatible genetics, etc.)
Just as IMO it is not sound to conclude HFs don’t confine deer/make any difference in deer movement because once in twelve blue moons a buck will jump one.
Just as IMO it is not sound to argue the .223 is an optimum deer caliber simply because it will kill a deer.

Taking “outlier” examples and applying them to broad questions is not the hallmark of the expert - it’s simply engaging in useless banter that sheds no real light on the issue at hand. IMO.

I don't ear tag anything. I don't have a breeders license. I have a 330 acre pasture with improved genetic deer that were all born here. It's my house pasture so I know these deer well.

That said, the first time I noticed late born fawns was on the first ranches I bought back in the late nineties. Between del rio and Sonora our deer always had fawns in sept.-nov. Not many, but some. Those were all native deer.

I believe you.
Is the 330 acres HFed?

NP I will also say that if you've only really hunted east Texas you are looking at a small and well defined window.

I hunted there in my youth and have never seen any part of Texas that was as predictable about rut as east and even more, southeast Texas. Your rut in east texas typically starts in mid to late Oct depending on how far north or south you are. In southeast Texas it starts and is mostly over in sept. (Brazoria county). In both areas it ends earlier than south, west, and central Texas.

But "rut" as the term that is used by us to define the main breeding session doesn't include the full breeding cycle. That doesn't end until the last doe is bred, and some doe fawns (who most of the time don't cycle until they are yearlings) do in fact cycle in late spring. At least in central, west, and south texas.

Yes it is. I have that pasture, and two 500 acre pastures individually high fenced here.

No. You can't group them by "class". Some deer are born in Oct. Nov. You simply can't group a deer that was born then with deer that were born in June. [/quote]

We dang sure can if we are saying on average they wont score what the forked antlered bucks do later in life. A couple months age difference doesn't matter any at 5 and 6 years of age.

The decision should be based on whether you want to feed a deer 5 years that most likely wont score what a forked antlered buck will at the same age. The answer to that lies in your particular management plan and what you do with your bucks (sell hunts/personal lease etc). [/quote]

You should read before you post. Even your own statements. You are right in your highlighted statement. But you couldn’t be more wrong about what birthdate does to that bucks first two sets of antlers. ALL bucks are nubbins as fawns. What I’ve written and you’ve ignored is the FACT that if born late (late sept to dec), MOST buck fawns will be a short spike the next fall when they are one year old “yearlings”, not the classic 1.5 year old “yearling”.

Those 4-6 months difference in age make what might have been a 4 to 10 point first year buck, a spike.

I live with deer all year long and I’ve seen spikes grow into bucks just as big as any other buck multiple times.

Their genetic potential is impossible to judge if you judge them as spikes, because of how critical that 4-6 month delay in development is.

So yes, at 5 or 6 it won’t make a difference. But it makes a huge difference their first couple of years. And if you use that difference to judge a bucks potential you’re gonna make some big mistakes. [/quote]

You are trying to take the exception and make it the norm. The argument of " I have seen spikes grow into bucks just as big" is just that...the exception.No, it's not the exception. It is the exception that a few of my buck fawns are born late. It is a proven fact that they all mature at trophy status. Im glad you live with deer because I guess you can tell which spikes do what the next year. Being a land baron and all I guess you keep all of your bulls until they are mature to figure out which ones you want to keep as breed bulls? I don't think so. I have no idea what statement you're trying to make by comparing culling bulls and spikes..

You try hard to take genetics out of the equation but it doesn't work that way. Not at all, I'm saying that genetics are everything.Facts are that a spike antlered yearling buck on average wont equal their fork antlered counterparts at maturity.That statement is a steaming pile of bullc$#t Now if your management plan calls for keeping all of those to maturity and hope you get the exception that turns into a buck same size as its class mates that is up to you. You don't hurt a thing on your top end type bucks by shooting spikes each year. Correct, I don't "hurt a thing on the top end by shooting spikes". However, I'd be shooting a deer that will max out somewhere between 160 and 200+". And I prefer to keep that money in my pocket.

I am not currently shooting spikes on my place but I very rarely see one. We are hammering the heck out of them by the time they are 3 for no brows, 3pt or less sides, etc. Everyone's plan and goals are different. On overpopulated areas it can really be very beneficial to get age classes in line with population goals. [/quote]

That tells me your playing with a different deck of cards than low fence Texas genetic deer.

In one pasture I am. But on my other pastures and low fenced native ranches I see late born (late bred) fawns at about the same rate as I do on my improved genetic pastures/ranches.

Not sure what the difference is that could be deduced by any comparison

That Winter born fawn thing is a garbage arguement. Land baron you are really stretching it now trying to be right. Lol

To me the difference is on the native low fence stuff most of the multi tined yearlings born at the perfect time wont make the bottom end of your trophy class of 160 much less the spikes that were timely born. How many of your low fence bucks make it to 160-200 range?

You are absolutely correct. Where I am, the worry about big age windows for fawns is not what it is in many other places. Which can (and does) influence my decisions.

Also, your situation is unique to many on a 330 acre pasture over which you have total control. You are in a much better position to just wait and know for sure if that spike will grow into a biggun - and react accordingly.

That’s not even the issue being discussed. Different areas have different top-ends. No one is disputing that.

Why is it when you have no facts to support your argument you have to name call? I agree with the rancher your spike argument is a steaming pile of

Can you post up facts from your management practices to support you trying to be right? Are you trying to say all fawns are born before October?

He has a genetically superior herd, I think its irrelevant what his spikes turn into in comparison to native LF spikes. By using his deer as a comparison you could make the argument that spikes are genetically superior because if all his grow to 160 they are doing better than the majority of branch antlered wild deer.

Has the ability.... He is more intune with his fawns and deer progress from year to year.

Rut outside normal dates isn’t rare just not Norm. Especially hill country and coastal deer. I killed a doe 6 years ago open week a bow season and she had a 7” fetus, ruffly a 13/14 weeks post conception. That’s a mason hill country deer.

Grand scheme You either want to feed them or not, I highly doubt most lessees have the tags to truly cull bucks, especially when they have way more doe tags.

The whole spike agruement is only applicable to those that have an ability to down size herd by at minimum 33% year over year. I’d say probably higher then that in reality

Yes, these things go down all sorts of misleading rabbit trails. Always do.

The “shoot or not shoot spikes” issue has no real definitive answer - even from a general standpoint. It certainly has no definitive answer considering all the various factors involved on different places (330 acres HF with total control and superior genetics has absolutely no relation to most places - just like November-born fawns don’t).

All one can do is make the best decisions one can make based on one’s own circumstances.

Most of my fawns are born in a narrow window. I have a good number of branch-antlered 1 1/2 year olds. So I don’t mind shooting a spike. Doesn’t mean I’m right or know everything. But it doesn’t make me an idiot either.

I’ve already said it’s not making any difference for the vast majority anyway.

What the top end is in different areas has nothing to do with my point.

We are discussing potential and how you can’t accurately use initial hard antler size to decide that potential unless you relate it back to age.

Period.

I don’t try things I don’t accomplish. Well, not including hover boards.

I’ve explained it sufficiently, you choose to believe I’m wrong. That’s nothing I can fix.

Been watching this thread... Didn't have any input, and really still don't. But i checked game cams the other day and we have a new spike frequenting one of our set ups. He looks to be fresh off the milk, and he'll be easy to spot for years to come (if he makes it), considering hes got one eye and a nasty scar on his face just under where his eye should be. Looks like he may have got to sparring with another buck and it got the best of him. Made me think of this thread when i saw him. Interested to see how he develops.

Give me a break! Where have you ever seen a hunted free range population of whitetail deer where bucks outnumbered does? I’m not saying it’s impossoble, but it’s highly unlikely. Even in unhunted populations, natural mortalities rates are higher for bucks than does, leading to numbers being skewed slightly to more does than bucks. [/quote]

Our place in Stonewall county has far more Bucks than does. At least that's what our cameras and observations while hunting tell us. We agreed not to shoot any does the past two seasons because we've seen so few. Not sure we're doing the right thing, but seems right in our opinion.

Our place in Stonewall county has far more Bucks than does. At least that's what our cameras and observations while hunting tell us. We agreed not to shoot any does the past two seasons because we've seen so few. Not sure we're doing the right thing, but seems right in our opinion. [/quote]

That’s the way it appears, but it’s unlikely the reality.