So now 1/32" on the sides and 1/4" on top is sloppy. You need to notify me when these changes occur.

Freaking hippy!!!

Congrats...You're on way to becoming a cop. Won't be long before you trade your bunker gear and red truck for a duty belt and a patrol car.

In ten, I can retire from the FD. I could do just that. Prolly get myself fired pretty quick though. My give a damn won't be working very well 100% of the time.

I'm now eligible to retire but going to do 3 more (31 years total service) to max out my benefits. By that point my monthly pension can't go any higher and my medical will be 80% funded.

I guess that's my biggest problem with this. Most people ii know that use it, don't use it to be exact. I'm not calling them bad shots, but if they hit 3 inches high, its still a hit. With a deer or a pig a few inches in any direction is still a vital hit. Its not near as exact and takes some thinking out of it at reasonable ranges. I'm not advocating being a poor marksman by any means. It needs to be verified. I prefer to only use it on rifles that make 3000fps or faster.

On a side note. If you believe someone that you have never met hates you just because they disagree with you, that's your problem.

I'll repeat myself.

The guy I was helping is quite sharp. We figured out how for he, and his equipment to shoot more precisely, and with an easy to remember set of corrections. Sure someone could not hold those corrections, but I don't understand why they would.

I don't have a problem with disagreement, I have a problem with trolls that do nothing but stir up trouble, and provide nothing of educational benefit to the discussion. I'm not always right, but this was testing of a rifle/ scope/ and ammo, (and with a common hunting rig) and I shared the results. As has been mentioned, why would there be any bickering? Answer is, just to stir up trouble.

Sounds like you helped your buddy out very well. Corrections are great if you have time to use a rangefinder. As often as not, there isn't such time, no rangefinder available, etc......then whatever corrections you memorized are useless. At least that's the way I've seen it since 1980, and 250+ big game animals later. I'm not much of a stand/feeder hunter though.

if you have been hunting for a few years you can guesstimate 100,200,300 yards pretty close when seeing an animal. If you can't I suggest you go out in your hunting environment in the off season and go shed hunting and carry a range finder while walking around. You can stop and guesstimate an object and then use the rangefinder to verify how close you are. It will help for many hunting occasions inside of 300 yards and it's a good skill to have.

I agree Sapper, that was exactly what I was saying. I don't have a RF with me all the time, and even when I do there may or may not be enough time to use it. That's why I use and like the +3"@100 yds so much, and have been for over 35 years.

They are different paths to the same goal. And the better your model and the more you test and refine it the more accurate you will be.


Hopefully we all know that a bullet travels in an arc. It rises after its fired. Peaks at some point. Then falls down to earth.

Using a mil or moa system allows you to know the drop at any point along the curve.

Conversely I can set a range up or down and determine what distances it would be adequate based
On my range. I.e. A 6in circle versus a 10in circle.


Regardless of the system, picking arbitrary numbers will be a bad model. So if you just do 1.5in above zero. That my work great for a certain caliber, but I would bet money it won't work for others. Things like scope height, bullet bc, velocity all come in to play.


I can no more use someone else's mpbr data as I could there mil data. All guns are different

Couldn't agree more, which is why I've said you have to shoot/verify. That eliminates the guessing.

^^No argument from me.

It does happen, but is rare, someone contacts me requesting that they come out, zero, and then see what their gear is doing at varying distances. That makes me suspect, not state, suspect lots of hunters do not verify their corrections, or the size of the cone they can keep bullets inside of.

It's like the old ar saying

Zero at 50 you will be 1in high at 100 and 1 in Low at 200

It all depends on bullet, velocity, and scope heigh

I "stirred up trouble" by providing the only accurate and reliable accurate information about utilizing MPBR in this topic.

Mentioning sportsmanship is "white noise".

That tells the whole story, here.

It was inaccurate from you, as is common.

Yes, it's white noise. Helping a guy find exactly where he needs to make corrections is the true meaning of the "sportsmanship" word, you like to use so often. It is how one reduces error in making a shot, therefore reducing the possibility of wounding an animal, which can cause a long tracking ordeal, which can cause an unrecovered animal, that suffered a slow death.

I'm in the business of performing, and teaching precision shooting, that carries over to hunters or competitors, and am happy to help someone with whatever equipment they bring out. We find what the equipment, and ammo is capable of. Sometimes it is no more capable than 2 or 3 MOA at 100 yards. At least they discover that, and therefore know the limitations of their equipment. Other equipment is capable of 1/2 MOA from 100-800 yards, and often the shooter realizes their equipment is capable, but they learn that they need to practice more before they are capable. That also teaches the individual their limitations. All of these things equate to good sportsmanship, since they are more likely to make a clean shot, than if they had never come to the range to learn what their equipment, and they can do.

Why rely on MPBR when there are 1000's of optics with reticles and turrets to actually omit MPBR.

Ease and quickness.

I "stirred up trouble" by providing the only accurate and reliable accurate information about utilizing MPBR in this topic.

Mentioning sportsmanship is "white noise".

Charles,

FJG and I have no affiliation or even talked to the guy, is NOT saying mpbr is useless. He is sayin it IS useless without a baseline and concrete data. Then your just guessing because as I know you know as a custom rifle builder handloads get ya the lil bitty repeatable groups if you can shoot them

You build custom rifles, if you were to build me A custom rifle from the ground up off a 700. Would you not verify things were trued and concentric? Or would you just take the word of the Remington that everything was gtg?

what he's saying, is certain approaches require more to be done to ensure accurate repeatable results will happen. NOT that a hold or mpbr cannot work.

Fwiw don't be so hostile in a discussion that has educational value. At the very least it can't hurt business.

I suppose that you can read into the topic anything that you want to. I do not see an accurate description of MPBR anywhere in JG's comments, just disparagement.

So I provided accurate, complete information.

That's what I do.

I'm a Mil/Mil guy. But I enjoy squeezing the potential out of the plain vanilla Duplex, that most people use. There are tons of hunters that never want to switch, and never plan to shoot very far. In that case, there is a way to accurately, and repeatedly shoot a little farther than their zero. But, like any type of shooting, a person has to practice to get good at it.

Charles, what you're refusing to accept is that MPBR is shooting with a known error. In the case of this rifle/ optic/ and ammo, we found the error and removed it. Bring another set of rifles, scopes, and ammo, and the same exact process can be repeated. Find the error, then find how to remove it.

It's really not rocket surgery, at least not for me.

And most people think they can actually dope wind consistently, when the in fact cannot. It's an acquired art, not easily done, and one in which nobody can do accurately 100% of the time. Especially on the first shot. I've had 150 hunters in camp over the past 15 years and many of those thought they could too.

Can you correct it without a rangefinder?

Worst wind for me is a tail or head wind, gets me everytime....I've become accustomed to using turrets, when hunting I know the distances to the feeders and where the deer usually come out. Using a quality range finder and JBM app I can dial in on the distance and I pay attention to the wind the whole time while hunting. I never make a quick shot anyway, I'll study the deer for a good bit before making a decision to pick up my gun so time really isn't much of an issue. If its to windy I won't shoot at a deer past 300 but will on a pig.