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Brass annealer
#6264315
04/17/16 11:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,051
Cattleman
OP
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OP
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What is the most effective low cost brass annealer ?
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6264343
04/18/16 12:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,872
GLC
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 5,872 |
Small propane tank with a solder tip and a cordless drill. At least it is the low cost side you are looking for unless you are doing a bunch of it.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6264377
04/18/16 12:31 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 446
hovercat
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 446 |
From an NRA article. Get a shallow pan as big around as you can turn easily in one hand. Fill it with water 1/2 way up the case. Place a case in the center and heat with a propane torch rotating the pan (and case) constantly until it barely shows red, this is easier in a semi-dark room. Immediately tip the case over into the water.
Last edited by hovercat; 04/18/16 12:32 AM.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6264452
04/18/16 01:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,515
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,515 |
That works, just be careful not to over heat and have done the water pan before but I get better results with a torch, drill with socket a litter larger in diameter than the brass and a bucket of water. Video using those tools Pretty good read on Annealing Link
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265237
04/18/16 04:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452
cullbuck
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452 |
Does anyone know what type and temperature of heat indicating paste are they referring to in the video?
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265259
04/18/16 04:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,734
Mickey Moose
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From http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html... Optimal Case Temperatures for Successful Annealing
Brass is an excellent conductor of heat. A flame applied at any point on a case for a short time will cause the rest of the case to heat very quickly. There are several temperatures at which brass is affected. Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature.
The trick is to heat the neck just to the point where the grain structure becomes sufficiently large enough to give the case a springy property, leaving the body changed but little, and the head of the case virtually unchanged.
If cases are heated to about 600 degrees (F) for one hour, they will be thoroughly annealed--head and body included. That is, they will be ruined. (For a temperature comparison, pure lead melts at 621.3 degrees F).
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft. From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:
1. Due to conduction, the amount of heat necessary to sufficiently anneal the case neck is great enough to ruin the rest of the case.
2. If the case necks are exposed to heat for a sufficient period of time, a lower temperature can be used.
3. The longer the case necks are exposed to heat, the greater the possibility that too much heat will be conducted into the body and head, thereby ruining the cases.
4. The higher the temperature, the less time the case necks will be exposed to heat, and there will be insufficient time for heat to be conducted into the body and head.
You can see that there are a couple of Catch-22s involved in this annealing business. On the one hand, the brass conducts heat quite rapidly, and a fairly high temperature with sufficient time must be attained to do the job. On the other hand, too much time cancels the effect, and we will be left with a case that is too soft and not suitable for anything but scrap. Obviously, there must be a solution; otherwise, not even the cartridge manufacturers could do it right. The Hornady annealing kit ( http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manu...nstructions.pdf) includes paste which reportedly melts at 475; the recommendation is to apply it down to a quarter of the case body. Based on the info in the 6mmbr link the Hornady temp seems low. https://www.google.com/#q=tempilaq
My botnet is bigger than yours.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265283
04/18/16 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258 |
Don't waste your money.
Turn all the lights off in your reloading room and put the flame to the neck/shoulder junction (I like having on the outside blue flame not the intense inside flame) and spin it with a drill. Once the tip of the neck starts to turn red/glow get it out of the flame. This has always been the time the Templaiq (sp?) and that stuff only has a 6 month shelf life...in addition to it being a PIA to deal with. Also, no need for water...let it cool at room temp. I dump mine in a cookie sheet/pan.
I started that way and I am convinced it helps preserve my brass and I get more consistent neck tension...so I bought a BenchSource annealer. If you're going that route (which is not cheap) you get either the BenchSource or Giruad annealers, they are the two best.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265288
04/18/16 05:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,515
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,515 |
From what I have found 750 degrees for a couple seconds, cool and done. Brass starts the orange glow at about 900 degrees and will make it softer than wanted. I have "annealed" to a very dim glow in the past but that was years ago and was done as described in a Speer reloading manual.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265294
04/18/16 05:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452
cullbuck
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452 |
Thanks for the additional info. Have you tried this stuff?
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265485
04/18/16 07:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 603
Dien
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 603 |
Everyone's different....
I don't use paste. I light up the cases to the point right before the flame changes color.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265493
04/18/16 07:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954
ChadTRG42
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Posts: 18,954 |
If I'm not using a buddies Giraurd annealer, I do it with the propane torch. 6 to 6.5 seconds is all you need on a spinning piece of brass. Get the brass to where is just begins to turn orange, and that's it. If it gets red, that's too hot, and the brass will be too soft.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265520
04/18/16 07:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
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Tracker
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I have one friend with the Giraurd, and one with a Benchsource. The Giraurd is kind of case specific, and so you need different insert thingy for different cartridges, and so forth. But you can load up a whole batch of cases in it and walk away. The Benchsource machine to me is much more adaptable, it can do pretty much anything with what comes with it. But, you have to sit and feed cases into it. I think as far as quality of the annealing job there is no difference between the two. It comes down to which machine fits your needs. Both are pretty comparable on price as well.
For my needs and what I do, I imagine I will end up getting a Benchsource next year. IMO having annealing done, and done precisely, is well worth the cost whichever machine you choose.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265530
04/18/16 07:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 22,630
Cast
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Giraud is adding an induction annealer to its line soon. That's the one I want.
Cast I have a short attention spa
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265612
04/18/16 08:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258 |
Red/orange...you get the point, if it wasn't dark in the room I wouldn't see it turn and it's far from 900 degrees...I've used Templaq and it's ~750. FWIW...mine's 4-4.5 seconds on most cases using the dual flames and the machine turning the case.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265662
04/18/16 09:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,321
Big A
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 3,321 |
I found plans for a DYI online and put one together about 3 weeks ago best thing I ever did it is no benchsource or Giraud but load it up and let it go. I think I have about 100-125 in to it.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun"
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265769
04/18/16 10:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
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Big A, can you share the plan and parts list for the annealer you built?
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6265831
04/18/16 10:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452
cullbuck
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 452 |
I have never annealed brass but it sounds like I need to. I can periodically feel the difference in neck tension while seating bullets. About how many reloadings can you get before you need to anneal it (while only bumping the shoulder ~.002 during resizing)?
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6266102
04/19/16 01:19 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
Tracker
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Tracker
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The annealeze machine is $275 shipped and works great.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6266162
04/19/16 01:52 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,321
Big A
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 3,321 |
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun"
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6269213
04/21/16 02:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,389
BassCat'99
Pro Tracker
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doe's it make a difference dropping brass in water or a dry pan to cool?
22 Creedmoor
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6269228
04/21/16 02:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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Some say water cooling isn't necessary but I think it's a good idea. It will immediately arrest any heat making its way to the case head, and you definitely do not want to anneal the head.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: cullbuck]
#6269299
04/21/16 03:04 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 899
jeff1383
Tracker
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Tracker
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I have never annealed brass but it sounds like I need to. I can periodically feel the difference in neck tension while seating bullets. About how many reloadings can you get before you need to anneal it (while only bumping the shoulder ~.002 during resizing)? I go 3 or 4. Some people anneal every other firing. Some guys shooting 375/408 sized cases may anneal after every firing.
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6269349
04/21/16 04:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
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Just today on another another site, someone I know to have about sixty-plus years of reloading experience and who I think highly of said he had noticed the best firings always seem to be the second ones after annealing. There might be something to it.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6269665
04/21/16 02:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,258 |
Water is not necessary...brass doesn't continue to build heat after it's pulled from the flame. Matter of fact they cool down surprisingly fast. Besides...then you have to wait for them to dry or blow them out...it's just an unnecessary step.
I anneal every time...reason being, I get more consistent neck tension.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Brass annealer
[Re: Cattleman]
#6269866
04/21/16 03:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,825
poisonivie
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
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I always thought slow cooling hardened brass, thus the reason for water.
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