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7mm Elk Bullet
#5880342
08/16/15 01:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638
DStroud
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Since the post about the better elk cartridge has waned a little I guess I will ask a specifc question and see how that pans out. My choice of elk medicine this season will be a 280 Remington. Last season I shot one elk with the 162 AMax one with the 162gr SST and the last one with a 168gr Berger Classic all with the same Steyr rifle. Yes I like to tinker. All shots under 100 yards and all made about two steps and collapsed. My plan was to use the same load I ended up with last season (168 Berger)but checking my twist rate of the Steyr it turns out to be 1/8.6 so it should handle the 180gr Berger Hybrid and I just happen to have some. Loaded up a group of them this morning and they shoot fine and to the same POI as my other load at 100 yards. Now the question go with the heavier 180gr at 2730fps or run the 168gr Classic at 2925fps. I doubt I would try to take a shot much past 600 yards or so with this setup so not sure it really matters but checking to see if anyone has taken larger game with the 180 Hybrid. I know the 6mm 105 Hybrid is not a good deer bullet..... well unless you LIKE blood trailing then its an OK choice.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5880357
08/16/15 01:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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My fear would be lack of a blood trail.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5880371
08/16/15 01:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Sounds like you've pretty much got your ideas/preferences and criteria, which are different from mine.
Short blood trails are fine IMO. Much preferable to no blood trail since there is no true 100% "DRT" bullet.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5880398
08/16/15 02:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I killed my elk with a 180 gr. VLD Hunting. 200 yard shot to the vitals, he took a few steps and piled up. There was no exit wound as I recall. The MV out of the 7 Rem Mag was 2935 fps back then. Since, the barrel has sped up and on .002" bumped brass it is making 3020 fps MV.
Run the numbers on your load see what it shows. Also dig into Berger's website for their recommended velocities.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881063
08/16/15 05:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954
ChadTRG42
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I always like heavier bullets for bigger animals. More weight, more energy on target, better penetration.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881093
08/16/15 06:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351
southern_fowler
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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Shot a couple cows with the 180's or 190's out of a 300WM at 150-200 yrds and they both went a few yards and piled up. same trip to the ranch shot a cull buck with the 140's out of a 6.5X47 and had to shoot him in the neck to put him down before he got in the brush.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881110
08/16/15 06:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 728
TxHunter80
Tracker
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Tracker
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Accubond or Partition would be my choice. I like a bullet to shed some weight but still have plenty of penetration.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881160
08/16/15 07:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
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Anything with depleted uranium
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5881234
08/16/15 08:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638
DStroud
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Anything with depleted uranium I agree anything to get away from these horrible toxic lead bullets.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: TxHunter80]
#5881781
08/17/15 02:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,509
kmon11
junior
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junior
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Accubond or Partition would be my choice. I like a bullet to shed some weight but still have plenty of penetration. X2 Have used the 7mm 160 gr partition on elk from a 7mmSTW.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: kmon11]
#5881807
08/17/15 02:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Serious question.
Since my M.O. is practicing and teaching shot placement, wouldn't the vast majority of bullet constructions kill effectively if they are placed on vitals above or at the speed of sound?
The Paramedic side of me thinks of hydrostatic shock imparted by most bullets.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881845
08/17/15 02:30 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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If it makes it to vitals, then yes. Not making to the vitals would be cause for concern. Sometimes you roll the dice on very accurate bullets hoping they retain the weight to get to where they need to go after contact. I was flat out ticked off at VLDs during our Colorado trip for wasting a day. Never in my life seen an animal absorb that much and bleed that little despite massive entrance wounds.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: J.G.]
#5881862
08/17/15 02:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,509
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
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Serious question.
Since my M.O. is practicing and teaching shot placement, wouldn't the vast majority of bullet constructions kill effectively if they are placed on vitals above or at the speed of sound?
The Paramedic side of me thinks of hydrostatic shock imparted by most bullets. What bullet are you using that will expand to deliver hydrostatic shock at the speed of sound that will not go to pieces if impact velocity is say 2800fps?
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5881905
08/17/15 03:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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"Hydrostatic shock" is thrown around a lot, but the phrase has been shown to be poorly defined and of little demonstrable value when it comes to causing quick mortality in big game animals.
The one immutable requirement is to get a wound channel that penetrates to a vital area. That's it. Anything that potentially sacrifices the odds of that happening is a poor tradeoff.
To me, that means using a well-constructed bullet considering the animal sought. For elk, IMO that means an Accubond, Partition, or monometal expanding bullet. Everything else is a risk, and often a big risk.
Last edited by Nogalus Prairie; 08/17/15 12:22 PM.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5882031
08/17/15 10:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,523
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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+1
I'll stick to the old, long standing paradigm of bullet performance: retain weight, expand moderately, and penetrate straight and deep---hopefully exiting the off side.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: kmon11]
#5882097
08/17/15 12:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Serious question.
Since my M.O. is practicing and teaching shot placement, wouldn't the vast majority of bullet constructions kill effectively if they are placed on vitals above or at the speed of sound?
The Paramedic side of me thinks of hydrostatic shock imparted by most bullets. What bullet are you using that will expand to deliver hydrostatic shock at the speed of sound that will not go to pieces if impact velocity is say 2800fps? An FMJ for instance.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: J.G.]
#5882105
08/17/15 12:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,509
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,509 |
Serious question.
Since my M.O. is practicing and teaching shot placement, wouldn't the vast majority of bullet constructions kill effectively if they are placed on vitals above or at the speed of sound?
The Paramedic side of me thinks of hydrostatic shock imparted by most bullets. What bullet are you using that will expand to deliver hydrostatic shock at the speed of sound that will not go to pieces if impact velocity is say 2800fps? An FMJ for instance. So a FMJ is good for elk? Don't think I will try it.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5882106
08/17/15 12:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,197
Chris42
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
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The laws of the internet require me to make fun of you for using the term "hydrostatic shock." It is so 90's. There, the internet gods are appeased. The sun will rise tomorrow. Seriously, I think permanent and temporary wound cavity is a better way of thinking of how bullets do damage. Its not that big of a deal most of the time since white tail deer are thin skinned and easily killed and modern firearms are very effective. The bigger the animal, the more likely the bullet designed to punch paper won't damage the vitals reliably.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: kmon11]
#5882109
08/17/15 12:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I didn't say it was "good", and I would prefer not to try it. I suspect a perfect shot to vitals will beget an elk tracking chore. But the elk will die. When we get into bullet construction conversation I suspect we basically want a bullet to kill fast and provide us with a dead elk exactly where we shot it, or within very close proximity.
So my point is a huge list of bullets will kill, but a shorter list will prevent or curtail tracking.
People kill elk with broadheads every year.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5882132
08/17/15 01:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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Any bullet will more than likely kill an animal - eventually. That's all kinda beside the point for hunting.
We went through the "frangible/splatter" bullet phase in the first half of the 20th century. Many animals were lost and the cartridge caliber most often shouldered the blame. (Read Ruark, Hemingway, Keith). As folks began to understand the importance of bullet construction and quick mortality, results improved greatly. IMO the wonderful innovations in bullet construction have been the #1 advancement in hunting over the last 25 years.
We are beginning to see signs of a return to the "bad old days" with the long range craze, as many are focusing more and more on getting a bullet to an animal at range, and less and less on what goes on with the bullet once it impacts the animal. Which is what really matters.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5882135
08/17/15 01:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483 |
Anything with depleted uranium I agree anything to get away from these horrible toxic lead bullets. I always make sure my second bullet is depleted uranium. Never know when you will run across a bonus species such as tyrannosaurus rex I don't think bullet size matters over .270 diameter....as long as you stay within impact designs. Key is impact velocity designs
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: DStroud]
#5882142
08/17/15 01:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
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Posts: 44,461 |
Do they load them for 4ga?
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5882158
08/17/15 01:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
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"Hydrostatic shock" is thrown around a lot, but the phrase has been shown to be poorly defined and of little demonstrable value when it comes to causing quick mortality in big game animals. Can we refer to it as the FUBAR effect since would channel should be the bullet diameter without any other forces coming into play?
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5882167
08/17/15 01:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,483 |
Any bullet will more than likely kill an animal - eventually. That's all kinda beside the point for hunting.
We went through the "frangible/splatter" bullet phase in the first half of the 20th century. Many animals were lost and the cartridge caliber most often shouldered the blame. (Read Ruark, Hemingway, Keith). As folks began to understand the importance of bullet construction and quick mortality, results improved greatly. IMO the wonderful innovations in bullet construction have been the #1 advancement in hunting over the last 25 years.
We are beginning to see signs of a return to the "bad old days" with the long range craze, as many are focusing more and more on getting a bullet to an animal at range, and less and less on what goes on with the bullet once it impacts the animal. Which is what really matters. And 50 years after the partition and A-Frame, the highly frangible bullets are still here and still popular and still effective. All have their each restraints Each and every bullet as one simple premise... Impact velocity. They are all effective under their own constraints. The whole at range craze as you call it, is brought to you by bullet construction via impact velocity. Nothing more nothing less. Therefor the at range craze is actually 100% about the science of bullet impact performance. BC is about retained speed for impact velocity..etc Manufacturering consistency might actually be more to blame for the long range craze(ability) then anything
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Re: 7mm Elk Bullet
[Re: rifleman]
#5882173
08/17/15 01:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
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"Hydrostatic shock" is thrown around a lot, but the phrase has been shown to be poorly defined and of little demonstrable value when it comes to causing quick mortality in big game animals. Can we refer to it as the FUBAR effect since would channel should be the bullet diameter without any other forces coming into play? Wound channels are real physical effects. "Hydrostatic shock" is just a phrase that has variously referred to many things - most often a "shock effect" that results in an immediate shut down of the nervous system. In short, it is an amorphous and unproven concept as it relates to quick animal mortality the way I've most often seen it used. There ain't no substitute for a well constructed bullet that properly balances expansion and penetration. And, all else being taken care of (velocity, weight retention, etc.), more weight is better than less weight. Unless you have some uranium bullets.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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