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Soldering Scope Base to Action?
#5874815
08/12/15 01:16 PM
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Wildhorse
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Has anyone ever soldered their picatinney rail, or any other scope base, to their rifle action? If so, what method did you use and who did it? What all is required?
The reason I ask is that someone on here was discussing producing a new action with the action and rail made separately and later permanently attached by welding or soldering. I thought that sounded like a fall-down-the-mountain proof way of attaching a base so the idea appealed to me.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5874850
08/12/15 01:38 PM
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J.G.
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I belive TIG welding is what is required, soldering is not strong enough. I wouldn't be scared to TIG weld them together. Some fine actions used to be put together this way, but now the action and pic rail are machined from one piece of steel.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5874857
08/12/15 01:43 PM
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REALKILLER
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You cant drill and tap it. seems like if you solder it or weld it, it may be your baby after that. May even be hard to sell if you wanted to do so in the future. I think the recoil would break solder loose.
Recently got a gym membership, strange folks! I like to show up the roid zombies with my full motion curls with the 55lb. bells. Not their cheater short stroked light weights. It's holarious.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5874887
08/12/15 01:57 PM
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Precision_Shooter
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Remington has been brazing (soldering) their bolt handles on forever. And there have been many instances where the solder has broken free when cycling the bolt. If you get a good strong bond between the 2, you may be ok, but for me, you are pretty much assured a strong bond when it's welded. TIG welding would be the way to go...
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5874918
08/12/15 02:21 PM
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SingleShot85
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seem like a lot more unnecessary work to produce an action with a built-in rail only to go back and permanently attach it, will be more costly in the end..... you have choice or flexibility w/ a detached rail, you have less "moving parts" with a built in rail all personal preference neither is better....
kt
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Precision_Shooter]
#5875077
08/12/15 03:35 PM
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Wildhorse
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Remington has been brazing (soldering) their bolt handles on forever. And there have been many instances where the solder has broken free when cycling the bolt. True. I've had a Remington 700 bolt handle come off in my hands before, so it sounds like TIG would be better. I belive TIG welding is what is required, soldering is not strong enough. I wouldn't be scared to TIG weld them together. Some fine actions used to be put together this way, but now the action and pic rail are machined from one piece of steel. I wonder if TIG welding the base would cause issues with the temper of the receiver and, if so, whether heat sinking the action could avoid the need to re-heat-treat the receiver after the action is complete. You cant drill and tap it. seems like if you solder it or weld it, it may be your baby after that. May even be hard to sell if you wanted to do so in the future. I think the recoil would break solder loose. You're probably right about the solder coming off with recoil. The reason I though soldering might work was because many rifles have their iron sights soldered onto the barrel. But, on second thought, those sights don't have to hold a heavy scope to the firearm under recoil, they just have to hold their own mass. Not to worry about the non-cost-effective nature of this idea, I'm just posing it as an academic question, not that I'm about to bite it off as a real project. If I feel like my base is too weakly attached I'd probably start out by drilling and tapping the action to accept a larger screw, which would provide more bearing surface to ensure that the base is securely attached.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: J.G.]
#5875084
08/12/15 03:40 PM
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TDK
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I have a ton of experience with soldering and its applications to gun making. Strength is no issue when done correctly using a Hugh tensile solder like sold by Brownells.
This being said why not drill and tap it?
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875089
08/12/15 03:44 PM
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Silver solder like the A/C guys use and a torch will be strong enough. Brazing will be stronger. Make some sort of alignment jig to hold it in place while soldering and cooling. Interesting thread.
Cast I have a short attention spa
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: TDK]
#5875111
08/12/15 04:08 PM
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Wildhorse
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This being said why not drill and tap it?
I'm actually conceptualizing this idea as a supplement to also attaching with screws. So screw, AND weld/solder/braze, kind of like a belt AND suspenders. My interest in this idea comes from my experience elk hunting. I've had buddy's fall on a boulder on top of their rifle. Horses could also fall or lay down on a rifle in the scabbard. Thinking about all the potential things that could happen to a rifle miles into the back country where no repair or replacement is possible leads me to be interested in ideas for eliminating as many potential points for failure as possible. Four little screws holding a scope on has just never inspired a whole lot of confidence that they might not end up being the weakest link.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Cast]
#5875115
08/12/15 04:09 PM
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Wildhorse
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Silver solder like the A/C guys use and a torch will be strong enough. Brazing will be stronger. Make some sort of alignment jig to hold it in place while soldering and cooling. Interesting thread. What is the difference between brazing and soldering?
Last edited by Wildhorse; 08/12/15 04:14 PM.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875139
08/12/15 04:24 PM
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Silver solder like the A/C guys use and a torch will be strong enough. Brazing will be stronger. Make some sort of alignment jig to hold it in place while soldering and cooling. Interesting thread. What is the difference between brazing and soldering? Silver solder vs a brazing rod. Solder for aluminum receiver, brazing rod for steel. Everything else is pretty much the same.
Cast I have a short attention spa
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875222
08/12/15 05:31 PM
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REALKILLER
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Im pretty sure once you screw it down your weakest link after that is going to be your scope itself. I hunt year round off the ground only. Needless to say that during my thousands of miles of walking there will be a few bangs and bumps along the way. A high quality scope will help you hold zero, but there isn't a scope out there that cant be knocked off zero. Ive always wanted to build a light protective cage around a scope. Now that's something you could build. kinda like a roll cage for a car.
Recently got a gym membership, strange folks! I like to show up the roid zombies with my full motion curls with the 55lb. bells. Not their cheater short stroked light weights. It's holarious.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875337
08/12/15 06:35 PM
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TDK
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There is soft soldering, silver solder, and brazing. Silver soldering and brazing are considered the same thing, just depends upon which part of the globe you're on. Soft soldering is done at anywhere from 250°-600°. Brazing is usually done at around 900-1300°+. I'd recommend a higher temp soft solder in the 450-600° area.
If you're located in dfw I can give you a quick in person crash course on soldering.
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875341
08/12/15 06:36 PM
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Korean Redneck
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I too am very skeptical of brazing or soldering. I'd imagine it ain't the strength of the braze and/or solder but adhesion to the steel that will ultimately be the problem. Even when u weld, if your temps are hot enough, then I thought that's were you'll have problems of the slag bonding to the surface of the parent metal.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875345
08/12/15 06:38 PM
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it.
Cast I have a short attention spa
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875355
08/12/15 06:42 PM
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TDK
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A mandrel in the raceway prevents warping. Color case hardening is done at 1450°, then quenched in 70° water. I've never warped an action. That being said welding would be more prone to warping die to uneven heat distribution.
High end custom makers usually tig weld bridges on the rear ring then drill tap the front.
Last edited by TDK; 08/12/15 06:45 PM.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875406
08/12/15 07:09 PM
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REALKILLER
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Ive had too many welders do a real quick and crappy patch job to my trailers to let anybody weld anything to a gun. They use the wrong rod, or don't get the surface clean enough and bam there you are stranded with a busted trailer on the side of the road. I would even go out on a limb and say that solder is a malleable type of material and I wouldn't want a weld holding my equipment to my gun with a softer than receiver material.
Recently got a gym membership, strange folks! I like to show up the roid zombies with my full motion curls with the 55lb. bells. Not their cheater short stroked light weights. It's holarious.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Cast]
#5875413
08/12/15 07:11 PM
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J.G.
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it. I wouldn't worry about that with TIG. The action is so robust you wouldn't have to penetrate even 25% deep into the action to get a steel pic rail welded to the action. And a good welder would make the weld look like a miniature stack of coins but only 3/32" wide.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: J.G.]
#5875446
08/12/15 07:27 PM
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Cast
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it. I wouldn't worry about that with TIG. The action is so robust you wouldn't have to penetrate even 25% deep into the action to get a steel pic rail welded to the action. And a good welder would make the weld look like a miniature stack of coins but only 3/32" wide. I can weld but the stack of coins is elusive.
Cast I have a short attention spa
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Cast]
#5875541
08/12/15 08:02 PM
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Wildhorse
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it. I wouldn't worry about that with TIG. The action is so robust you wouldn't have to penetrate even 25% deep into the action to get a steel pic rail welded to the action. And a good welder would make the weld look like a miniature stack of coins but only 3/32" wide. I can weld but the stack of coins is elusive. That would look so awesome! I kind of want to actually do that now just to see how sick the finished product would look.
Last edited by Wildhorse; 08/12/15 08:02 PM.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Cast]
#5875606
08/12/15 08:29 PM
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J.G.
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it. I wouldn't worry about that with TIG. The action is so robust you wouldn't have to penetrate even 25% deep into the action to get a steel pic rail welded to the action. And a good welder would make the weld look like a miniature stack of coins but only 3/32" wide. I can weld but the stack of coins is elusive. TIG welding is a dance. Two hands and one foot since I dont use the roller ball torch. No big deal if you have the machine set properly. 19 years of welding doesn't hurt either.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: J.G.]
#5875664
08/12/15 08:58 PM
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Wildhorse
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I'm more worried about the heat warping the receiver. I think I would drill and tap it. I wouldn't worry about that with TIG. The action is so robust you wouldn't have to penetrate even 25% deep into the action to get a steel pic rail welded to the action. And a good welder would make the weld look like a miniature stack of coins but only 3/32" wide. I can weld but the stack of coins is elusive. TIG welding is a dance. Two hands and one foot since I dont use the roller ball torch. No big deal if you have the machine set properly. 19 years of welding doesn't hurt either. Do you think that could be done without compromising the action's original heat-treat?
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875679
08/12/15 09:12 PM
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J.G.
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You will anneal the weld area during welding if it is not quenched afterward. The way to give you piece of mind after welding is to allow the weld to cool down from orange glow (estimated guess) is wait about 15 more seconds and quench in brine or oil. Water may or may not crack the weld. Again, you probably won't get the interior meat of the action steel hot enough to cause a problem. Quenching would just be insurance.
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: Wildhorse]
#5875728
08/12/15 09:48 PM
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QuitShootinYoungBucks
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I can do the stack of coins but it's usually dime-dime-nickel-quarter-nickel-quarter-dime instead of dime-dime-dime-dime-dime-dime.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Soldering Scope Base to Action?
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#5875739
08/12/15 09:59 PM
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Wildhorse
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I can do the stack of coins but it's usually dime-dime-nickel-quarter-nickel-quarter-dime instead of dime-dime-dime-dime-dime-dime. Sounds like a custom signature to me, which makes it more exclusive and desirable.
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