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Fouling shot
#5823230
07/08/15 07:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,985
TonyinVA
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I suspect this has been asked before, but is there a consensus as to whether or not you should sight-in or check your zero with a clean or fouled barrel (e.g. one shot through a cleaned barrel).
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823271
07/08/15 08:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,510
syncerus
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I think at least 4 or 5 rounds should be put down a clean barrel before any kind of testing, zeroing or verification of zero takes place. Ideally, you'd have 10+ rounds down the tube. My personal experience has been that the first round out of a clean bore usually has a mind of its own.
NRA Patriot Benefactor & DSC Lifer
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: syncerus]
#5823287
07/08/15 08:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,253
Judd
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I think at least 4 or 5 rounds should be put down a clean barrel before any kind of testing, zeroing or verification of zero takes place. Ideally, you'd have 10+ rounds down the tube. My personal experience has been that the first round out of a clean bore usually has a mind of its own. I agree...however, normally that mind of its own is normally consistant. The barrel will dictate how many it needs to settle down. Some are 3-5 and I've got one right now that is around 12-15 before it settles. I have a theory that I've not proven to myself quite yet but I believe as a barrel ages it takes more for it to settle. Reason I say this is because the barrel that requires 12-15 used to require 2 when it was almost new. I lost a match last year because the bottom fell out of it because I didn't have enough foulers in it.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823291
07/08/15 08:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.
Back to the range fire your clean cold bore (CCB) make note of where the shot landed. Then record shots #2 through as many as it takes until it starts to return to zero and/ or group back to 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, as it was before. Every rifle will be different, but all of mine take more than 5 shots before they are behaving properly, some have taken 20 rounds.
I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823308
07/08/15 08:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 386
El Tiburon
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One thing that should be done is removing storage oil or corrosion inhibitor before the cold shot. Many shoot the first shot with oil in the barrel, which just cooks it in. Always clean it out with alcohol or the like before the shot.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: J.G.]
#5823350
07/08/15 09:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,716
BigPig
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Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.
Back to the range fire your clean cold bore (CCB) make note of where the shot landed. Then record shots #2 through as many as it takes until it starts to return to zero and/ or group back to 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, as it was before. Every rifle will be different, but all of mine take more than 5 shots before they are behaving properly, some have taken 20 rounds.
I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel. My Savage is 2MOA high and 1.5MOA left on every CleanColdBore shot. I have routine of cleaning with this rifle. 10 swipes with copper brush, 10 swipes with M-Pro7, and 10 swipes with clean patches. After the CCB shot its always back on center. I can reliably dial for the CCB and hit the bullseye, and I know what each CCB shot is out to 500 yards in 100yd incriments. Now for my hunting rifles, they get cleaned like FJG said, when they tell me it's time.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823356
07/08/15 09:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 386
El Tiburon
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One thing that should be done is removing storage oil or corrosion inhibitor before the cold shot. Many shoot the first shot with oil in the barrel, which just cooks it in. Always clean it out with alcohol or the like before the shot.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: J.G.]
#5823366
07/08/15 09:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,107
catslayer
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Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.
I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel. sooo is this a sign of your thoughts on barrel break in as well...
Sombody smells like fried borritos...
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823369
07/08/15 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,708
603Country
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My approach is normally to give it two foulers, but I'm just a hunter and paper puncher. Judd's approach is probably the way I think it generally works best, and Fireman's super detailed note taking is impressive but not really necessary for us country boy varmint shooters. Besides that, he shoots constantly and well, and his notes on shots 2 through 50 would actually mean something. My notes would be more like "I pulled the 3rd shot" and blinked on 5 and 6, and "I just don't know what happened to make that 9th round go over there". A fellow would have to be a truly fine shot, and 'bonded' with his rifle to make notes that would be of any use.
As for removing copper, or never removing it, I really think that depends on the barrel and if it's factory or custom. When I clean, I'll take out all the carbon fouling and whatever copper comes with it when I'm doing that. If that won't bring a favorite shooting rifle back to where I think it should be, then I'll take the copper out. The only rifle I have these days that will 'copper up' much is my 220 with the Douglas barrel. The barrel has got some age on it and isn't as smooth as it once was. Still shoots great though.
The new 223 barrel from Horizon doesn't seem to pick up any copper at all. Same with the Brux barrel on the 260. And, for what it's worth in terms of copper laydown (or not), I shoot mostly Nosler bullets.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: catslayer]
#5823386
07/08/15 09:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Heres the scenario. Have a rifle that was shooting 1/2 to 3/4 MOA, and after 400 rounds it is now shooting 1 to 1 1/4 MOA, you know it has a good zero inside that 1 1/4 MOA, and you clean it.
I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel. sooo is this a sign of your thoughts on barrel break in as well... A brand new barrel needs to be thoughrouly cleaned free of machining fluid and steel chips.Then put 20 rounds down it before you beleive what it will really do. I always build 20 foulers before I build the test loads for load development. Shoot clean, shoot clean is hogwash. Foul it up well, then get to work.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823445
07/08/15 10:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,260
Texas Dan
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Some barrels will produce "flyers" more than others. My Remington ADL will drive a tack on the first shot, while my Winchester Model 70 needs two or three shots before it settles in.
The earlier point that an excess of protective oil can impact accuracy is a good one IMO. I've found that Hornady One Shot Gun Cleaner and Lube leaves little residue while being rated as one of the most effective protectants on the market today.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823456
07/08/15 10:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,072
cabosandinh
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you need to know where your zero are from clean bore to dirty bore
shoot 10 groups of 5 and take notes
do it again to confirm
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823958
07/09/15 02:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,985
TonyinVA
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Appreciate all the comments...more or less confirms what I thought....that is disregard the first few shots on a freshly cleaned barrel and let it settle in.
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5823989
07/09/15 02:58 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
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This is why I used to particularly treasure my old Browning A-Bolt stainless stalker in .300 Winchester magnum. That rifle was absolutely reliable about putting the first three shots out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards. It would do this with Federal premium 180 grain factory loads, every time.
A rifle that will do this is a treasure to any hunter.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: J.G.]
#5824018
07/09/15 03:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 746
TTUhunter4
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I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel. Did you post that backwards by mistake? Copper fouling is the enemy of accuracy. You want to keep the copper out and let a good layer of carbon coat the bore.
"God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal."
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TTUhunter4]
#5824231
07/09/15 11:48 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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I only clean when the rifle tells me it needs it, and then I only remove carbon with MPro-7. I do not remove copper through the life of the barrel. Did you post that backwards by mistake? Copper fouling is the enemy of accuracy. You want to keep the copper out and let a good layer of carbon coat the bore. No he didn't. Excessive copper fouling is bad but some isn't a big deal as the copper can fill voids or smooth rough spots in the bore. Keep in mind that caliber, bullet type and bore condition are variables in this factor.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: dee]
#5824352
07/09/15 01:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
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Copper in the bore is significantly softer than steel, in fact it is bullet jacket material and when similar metals are rubbed against each other at high speed, you get - galling.
Galling in a rifle bore roughs up the bullet jacket in some places but not in others. Metal is removed in some spots and glommed on in others. This is not conducive to good accuracy.
If your barrel will not shoot well when clean, packing it up with copper and carbon build-up is not the answer. This is why the primary feature of a proper barrel break-in is cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning. If you do not let copper build up inside the barrel, subsequent rounds will all do their part to polish and even out the barrels interior so that it does not collect contaminants so readily.
The idea that a rifle barrel must be contaminated with copper and/or carbon in order to shoot well is redneck 'science' that ignores the basics of metallurgy. At best, such practices are a kind of hillbilly band-aid to cover up for a rifle barrel that was never broken-in or cleaned properly.
Kind of like a kitten pathetically attempting to cover up the mess that it just made on the carpet.
My Winchester 1885 in 270 WSM is a good example... I clean it to the point where no copper or carbon is detectable with a bore-scope after each shooting session. This never takes long since I do not let it build up. This Winchester is a hunting rifle, not a thirty pound bench-rest gun - and yet I typically get 1/2" (or less) five-shot groups at 100 yards out of this rifle. My best so far was flinched in to .317", center to center. It shoots that well because it was properly broken in, and is shot from a squeaky-clean state.
Same thing with my old Browning stainless stalker in .300 Winchester magnum. The gun was broken in properly, and kept clean. - And it was reliable about putting the first three rounds out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards.
Same thing with my Savage model 16 in .243 Winchester. - Broken in properly and kept clean, this rifle also delivered 1/2" or smaller 100 yard groups on a reliable, regular basis.
So, either I have been incredibly lucky with these rifles - or one might want to consider that there is something beneficial to be had from properly breaking in a rifle barrel, and keeping it clean thereafter.
This is not to say that I have never had an inaccurate rifle. - I've had my share. The worst were used guns that had seldom been cleaned, and in some cases, new guns that just never did shoot well. - But the guns that have been the most accurate by far have been the ones that were broken in and maintained properly, in each and every case.
Before I learned how to treat a fine rifle, I used to feel really lucky if I could get one to shoot into 1" at 100 yards... Now I'm spoiled to expect much better accuracy than that.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5824354
07/09/15 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,253
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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The practical match shooters versus the benchrest guys are two completely groups and have completely different opinions in regards to cleaning.
The shortrange benchrest guys clean after every relay, the f-class (belly benchresters) clean after a match, and the practical guys never clean until the gun tells them too.
You have to figure out what works for you and shoot your gun enough to know what it's going to do in certain situations.
FWIW - WipeOut/PatchOut is the slickest stuff since the invention of cleaning barrels....so I do pull most if not all carbon and copper out of my bore when I clean.
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: charlesb]
#5824383
07/09/15 02:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,072
cabosandinh
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If your barrel will not shoot well when clean, packing it up with copper and carbon build-up is not the answer. This is why the primary feature of a proper barrel break-in is cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning. If you do not let copper build up inside the barrel, subsequent rounds will all do their part to polish and even out the barrels interior so that it does not collect contaminants so readily.
I am with you here I used to shoot a bench rifle (PPC) .... cleaning often is mandatory
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: charlesb]
#5824404
07/09/15 02:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Copper in the bore is significantly softer than steel, in fact it is bullet jacket material and when similar metals are rubbed against each other at high speed, you get - galling.
Galling in a rifle bore roughs up the bullet jacket in some places but not in others. Metal is removed in some spots and glommed on in others. This is not conducive to good accuracy.
If your barrel will not shoot well when clean, packing it up with copper and carbon build-up is not the answer. This is why the primary feature of a proper barrel break-in is cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning. If you do not let copper build up inside the barrel, subsequent rounds will all do their part to polish and even out the barrels interior so that it does not collect contaminants so readily.
The idea that a rifle barrel must be contaminated with copper and/or carbon in order to shoot well is redneck 'science' that ignores the basics of metallurgy. At best, such practices are a kind of hillbilly band-aid to cover up for a rifle barrel that was never broken-in or cleaned properly.
Kind of like a kitten pathetically attempting to cover up the mess that it just made on the carpet.
My Winchester 1885 in 270 WSM is a good example... I clean it to the point where no copper or carbon is detectable with a bore-scope after each shooting session. This never takes long since I do not let it build up. This Winchester is a hunting rifle, not a thirty pound bench-rest gun - and yet I typically get 1/2" (or less) five-shot groups at 100 yards out of this rifle. My best so far was flinched in to .317", center to center. It shoots that well because it was properly broken in, and is shot from a squeaky-clean state.
Same thing with my old Browning stainless stalker in .300 Winchester magnum. The gun was broken in properly, and kept clean. - And it was reliable about putting the first three rounds out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards.
Same thing with my Savage model 16 in .243 Winchester. - Broken in properly and kept clean, this rifle also delivered 1/2" or smaller 100 yard groups on a reliable, regular basis.
So, either I have been incredibly lucky with these rifles - or one might want to consider that there is something beneficial to be had from properly breaking in a rifle barrel, and keeping it clean thereafter.
This is not to say that I have never had an inaccurate rifle. - I've had my share. The worst were used guns that had seldom been cleaned, and in some cases, new guns that just never did shoot well. - But the guns that have been the most accurate by far have been the ones that were broken in and maintained properly, in each and every case.
Before I learned how to treat a fine rifle, I used to feel really lucky if I could get one to shoot into 1" at 100 yards... Now I'm spoiled to expect much better accuracy than that.
I don't do "break-in" on rifles and have some that will shoot just as good as your "broke in" guns. The owner of Snipershide has 2 identical Sako TRG that one got a "break in" while the other was just shot. Unless one looks at the serial number there is no difference in accuracy.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: charlesb]
#5824406
07/09/15 02:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,107
catslayer
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Copper in the bore is significantly softer than steel, in fact it is bullet jacket material and when similar metals are rubbed against each other at high speed, you get - galling.
Galling in a rifle bore roughs up the bullet jacket in some places but not in others. Metal is removed in some spots and glommed on in others. This is not conducive to good accuracy.
If your barrel will not shoot well when clean, packing it up with copper and carbon build-up is not the answer. This is why the primary feature of a proper barrel break-in is cleaning, cleaning, and cleaning. If you do not let copper build up inside the barrel, subsequent rounds will all do their part to polish and even out the barrels interior so that it does not collect contaminants so readily.
The idea that a rifle barrel must be contaminated with copper and/or carbon in order to shoot well is redneck 'science' that ignores the basics of metallurgy. At best, such practices are a kind of hillbilly band-aid to cover up for a rifle barrel that was never broken-in or cleaned properly.
Kind of like a kitten pathetically attempting to cover up the mess that it just made on the carpet.
My Winchester 1885 in 270 WSM is a good example... I clean it to the point where no copper or carbon is detectable with a bore-scope after each shooting session. This never takes long since I do not let it build up. This Winchester is a hunting rifle, not a thirty pound bench-rest gun - and yet I typically get 1/2" (or less) five-shot groups at 100 yards out of this rifle. My best so far was flinched in to .317", center to center. It shoots that well because it was properly broken in, and is shot from a squeaky-clean state.
Same thing with my old Browning stainless stalker in .300 Winchester magnum. The gun was broken in properly, and kept clean. - And it was reliable about putting the first three rounds out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards.
Same thing with my Savage model 16 in .243 Winchester. - Broken in properly and kept clean, this rifle also delivered 1/2" or smaller 100 yard groups on a reliable, regular basis.
So, either I have been incredibly lucky with these rifles - or one might want to consider that there is something beneficial to be had from properly breaking in a rifle barrel, and keeping it clean thereafter.
This is not to say that I have never had an inaccurate rifle. - I've had my share. The worst were used guns that had seldom been cleaned, and in some cases, new guns that just never did shoot well. - But the guns that have been the most accurate by far have been the ones that were broken in and maintained properly, in each and every case.
Before I learned how to treat a fine rifle, I used to feel really lucky if I could get one to shoot into 1" at 100 yards... Now I'm spoiled to expect much better accuracy than that.
and here you have the opposite view on barrel break in and cleaning... ring the bell for round 84566516958 in the break your rifle argument...
Sombody smells like fried borritos...
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5824549
07/09/15 03:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,645
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: TonyinVA]
#5824608
07/09/15 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549
redchevy
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Seems to me that unless you clean the barrel thoroughly after every shot going with the fould accuracy is more practical reliable consistent and much easier.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: redchevy]
#5824656
07/09/15 05:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Seems to me that unless you clean the barrel thoroughly after every shot going with the fould accuracy is more practical reliable consistent and much easier. BINGO!!! Aint nobody got time for that.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Fouling shot
[Re: J.G.]
#5824698
07/09/15 05:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,564
patriot07
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Seems to me that unless you clean the barrel thoroughly after every shot going with the fould accuracy is more practical reliable consistent and much easier. BINGO!!! Aint nobody got time for that. Agreed
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