If you're going to try and make a point, at least get your facts straight. $5K for a new truck? $2.50 minimum wage? Please junior.

I would be glad to pay $2,500 for a place to hunt and even more. Problem for me is I can't find a place that doesn't want to put a guy per every hundred acres or even less in some cases. There are very few places IMO that can actually support the number of acres per hunter that they put on a lease. Some places really shouldn't have more than a hunter per 640-1000 acres in West Texas especially with the drought conditions. It's expensive but Value is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Those of you that have a place and especially a place that is not overcrowded should fell very fortunate.

To 7mag, I am with you. My budget is 2K for a year round lease. As long as I can bring my family or a friend to shoot counting against my tag it is all good. Out of 52 weeks in a year, I can make at least 20 or more trips a year. During off season we may just camp, explore and shoot targets. During dove, deer and turkey we are all about hunting. The way I see it is if if I make 20 trips at an annual cost of 2000k, that is 100 cost for the trip. The lease we are on now we can roam over 3000 acres during off season to pig, predator and varmint hunt. I'd spend more on 1 or 2 outfitted hunts easily with no year round access.

Some of you guys get way too defensive on this topic....I never said anyone was being greedy. In fact just the opposite, and cited facts such as exponentially higher land values, the resulting taxes and liability, exploding population and less overall land being available for lease, and even said it was no one's particular fault, but more a result of the market. If you're a landowner, you should get as much as you can to lease your property. That is your right.

But for these reasons, I do see fewer spending their time and money hunting and the trend will more than likely continue through the next couple of generations.

I think it is mostly a supply/demand issue. As already stated, the supply of land available for lease has decreased. The Texas population has increased, and continues to increase. Of course, not all are hunters, but some are, and can afford a lease. I also was surprised when the economy tanked several years ago, and the lease prices continued to increase. I guess that is an example of the national economy and what is in someones pocket not being the same. On the consumer end, if you think the price of a lease is not reasonable, keep on looking. If you can't find anything, consider other options such as an out of state lease, or public land opportunities at a nearby state. There are some great leases out there, but as we all know from reading this forum, they are not easy to find,

The long lost barter system it sure made allot of land available to me. Fixing gates, cattle guards, pens and fence are as valuable to a landowner as cash in hand. Putting cash in his hand is far different than him paying cash out of hand. If they have some cows to work go help, fences to fix go help this develops a relationship with a person that simply writing them a check can't buy.

Now to address another side of this. For 2500 hundred dollars a man can put allot of meat in his freezer just using outfitters such as we have here on the forum. Cull hunts and exotic hunts are advertised on here daily, I've been on several. It's not a lease but it offers everything a lease does and in many cases more. I don't look at cost when it's something I enjoy but were I to, I probably wouldn't lease at all. The outfitter hunts fit my time schedule, my needs and are far less time consuming than trying to maintain a lease.

Now back to the 200,000 dollar lease. While I have leased large ranches in the past just for taking customers out I'll never do it again. Taking them to an outfitter and having them set up the hunts is cheaper in the long run and provides a more quality hunt. Depending on the nature of your business spending 2500 to 5000 a head is cheap depending on the payoff, he gets a hell of a hunt and you get a customer or an investor.

The rancher is right about sweating. But, in their own way, so are a lot of others here.

I own a small 133 acre place in Montague County. I bought it a long time ago as junk land at $450 per acre and wasn't sure I could make the payments. It's now paid for and worth about $400K for the land alone. I don't lease it. Toss in the trailer house, tractor shades, property taxes, water well, shipping container, propane, electricity, tractor/equipment, maintenance on everything and I have a heckuva investment/expense there. Now, we can add the cost having a road cut through it, of building stock tanks that the dozer guys expected to be paid to do.

Just about anyone can, over time, do that if that is part of their value system.

But, I do take 4 16 year olds (one is my Grandson) to hunt. Two are pretty lazy and, according to my GS and another kid, resent having to work even filling feeders. I have pretty well dissuaded them from that opportunity. Only one of the parents kicks in for the corn and other expenses. But, I just can't turn a kid down who wants to hunt. Consequently, we don't see a lot of deer with that many people prowling around. I haven't taken a deer in 3 or 4 years.

Yes, most of the adjoining land has been broken up into smaller 20 to 50 acre parcels.

None of my neighbors hunt nor allow hunting. They value their privacy and it would take a lot of $ for them to have other people around. I guess you can call that greedy. However, I have often asked just how much the average hunter would charge to rent out his unused bedroom? Greedy homeowners?

In any transaction, each party expects something in return and it wasn't always that way. I haven't found a lot of people who want to help me repair fences in July or even during pleasant weather without expecting something in return. Nor do I have any expectations of that.

The fishing guide with the $40K boat and a family to feed can also be considered greedy. So can the plumber.

But, back to the original question; damn right leasing is expensive.

I'm retired and what I consider middle income poor. I can't afford a lease. My son is now too old for youth hunts. We hunt for the meat not horns. We've hunted on public land but everyone knows how that is. We would love to hunt does or culls but I can't afford $500-$1000 for a weekend for us. We don't hunt anymore. So much for that. The real problem as someone else said is the kids. Kids are the future of this sport. Too many won't ever get the chance to try hunting because their parents can't afford a lease and don't know any ranchers. It is a real shame. I grew up with a gun walking in the woods. It's something every kid should be able to experience. I would like to ask all you lease and ranch owners to set aside time for the kids. Maybe have a kid weekend. The pleasure you get from seeing a kid take their first deer is something you never forget.

For the price of a laptop PC you can take them on a hog hunt, for the price of a new smart phone you can take them on a cull hunt. It's an investment in your child's future and one you have to make.

I think it is simple economics. As long as there are folks that will pay good money to hunt small acreage, it will continue to be this way. There are some that have the disposable income and those that will trim for it, then those that will hurt there finances for it. If there was endless cash and land, I don't think you would hear the word "day lease".

If hunters want to settle for paying 3k to hunt 100 acres to a man, how can you blame the LO?

If not one person leased hunting rights in 2014, how fast do you think prices would come down, do that for 2-5 years, but it would take less than one year to go back up, because of supply and demand. It is a hobby that cost money, whether you are an LO and hunt your place, or a lessee.

Agree with most of this. Add in the fact that many people drive new trucks, have a boat sitting in the drive way, and are going on a summer beach vacation, then complain about the cost of leasing and how they can't afford it.

No different than Hwymans post above about the kids. iPhones, iPads, computers, $250 shoes, flat screens, etc, but they can't afford to go on a $150 hog hunt.

There are cheap leases. Every year I see them listed for $350-500. It probably isn't going to be the type of lease you want, but they are there. No different than buying a $1k truck. It probably isn't going to be the new vehicle you are looking for, but they are there.

I think some may have missed my initial thought on pricing. I am limited on a budget. I am not placing anyone who can afford the higher end leases as jackwads or such, more power to ya. If I did have the money would I pay more for high end lease? I'm not sure I would.

I do believe most landowners place leases and hunting in general in a higher bracket due to the way some are willingly to pay. I can't and I won't, but that's me.

7Mag, I understand that. There are a lot of things that I can't afford that I might be able to write a check for. A lot of us here can't afford to go to a Cowboy or Maverick game. It just doesn't make financial sense and there's a lot of difference in what I can afford and what I can use a credit card for. Really good hunting opportunities, like attending professional sports games, are sure out of my price range.

Initial post is kind of a double edged post. You ask if the LO and outfitters have gotten greedy and some of their pricing has kicked people in the face, but then say you aren't bashing them.

I am in the same boat as you, limited budget and can't afford the really high end hunts or ranches. I have my limitations and try to find the best deal for what I can buy. No different than buying a vehicle for me. I am only capable of driving a certain level of vehicle and with the price increases in vehicles, I no longer drive one with leather, Nav system, etc.

I think David hit it. Your OP is pretty much like he said, or that is how I read it as well. Not a new argument, comes up in different fashions often. As David alluded to, any "product" can be priced above what some are willing to pay, doesn't make it a bad product. Value has different meanings to each person. IMO, money spent on a cruise is a ludicrous waste (unless it's Alaska) but those boats get cramed full, even after so many have bad experiences

As long as folks pay a hefty price to hunt and many for marginal (crappy) over hunted land, it will continue to go up. I don't like it either, so I go out of state for an DIY elk hunt.

I'll pay what my budget allows but it's not much.. Even if I could afford it I would spend big money on a lease unless I was getting it for family and could tie down a 10yr contract

1984 min was like 5.15, new chevy truck was like 23k

Old topic. It's just capitalism at work. I do think the price structure has limited many families from having year-round leases. Almost every boy I grew up with had a family deer lease to go to (plus many had the family farm too). Buying or begging a hunt every now and then is just not the same. It's a shame but much to be done about it though.....

Some of us don't want to admit 30 years ago wasn't the 60s and 70s. We are just getting old.

Was exactly my point as a result of the reasons I outlined. I grew up with a ton of hunters who all had leases or family places to hunt, and almost all continued on into adulthood. Though now a couple decades later, I would say less than half of them hunt at all. Of course their kids don't either. It's a trend that looks like will continue, if not accelerate.

I remember the first lease I got on that was like $400 a year and my dad telling me I was crazy for paying to hunt. Of course he grew up in the '50s and '60s in a rural area where paying to hunt was unheard of. Times are always changing.

Probably somewhere in between. I don't recall Min wage, but I can tell you a new Chevy silverado Reg cab in 1981 was just shy of 10K. In 1995 a new ext cab was 21k........

What makes your land worth what it is? I lease up there and been paying same price for 10 years. Minus any improvements, all the land list for sale has 'tons of deer and wildlife' on it which we both know what the truth is up there. Large acreage can grow deer there but small is just nice to have in my opinion. The land listed at $2,900 an acre has been for sale for 5 years around us and not going to sell at that price to a knowledgable buyer. It is selling for much less if it does sell. Our neighbor appears to have sold 500 acres for less than $1,800 an acre as it was listed for 3 years and signs just went down. No live creek and pretty open though. Best deal I have seen but realistic for what value it provides.

I sent a listing to an appraiser out of Bowie for raw brush land listed at $3,200 an acre and they said they would not value it over $2,000 an acre with no improvements or water. People must be paying straight cash if it sells at those prices ever. Cattle land will sell at premium prices though.

If my old lease with good cover was $1,250 a gun and 8 different guys have leased in 8 years, that should tell you what the deer density is... I think we went from having zero deer there to some deer and nice ones so the value went up but peaked as far as recreational value goes years ago. Coyotes and 4 wheelers are fun for a while... Reality is a deer per 20 acres there at most. That is based off gam cams, road counts, night counts and hunting all over the state. So if you have 100 acres, you will be lucky to have 5 deer move through daily. Why would you pay $3,000 an acre for that?

Leasing is cheap in my opinion overall but really fairly valued for what you get. Land is expensive no matter what. Would you want to pay $2,500 an acre for maybe a deer or two a year just to say you own the land? If you think it might go to $5,000 then good deal but most raw land over 2 hours for a city won't appreciate that much. The stock market or land in 2009 would have been good investments but stock would have been way better for 99% of the people. There are always exceptions.... If the rich (people with lots of money) wanted too buy everything, we would have zero land to hunt so I shouldn't complain. Luckily they like very nice cars and very expensive houses in the city.

I sold the adjoining place next to me a couple of years ago for $2,950 per acre. Granted, 71.5 acres and not 133 but the guy paid cash. And, that place was end of the road with no improvements; not even a road through it. The pond and creek had dried up. I have a standing offer from the guy that bought the 70 acres at the same price. Yeah, he has a lot of money.

I had bought the 70 acres from a guy who was in a financial jam and needed cash fast. I paid $1,650 per acre and kept it 5 years. I gave him some cash and took over his loan. When I sold it, I paid off the existing loan, my house and everything else with the profit. That made me debt free. It dang sure beat the stock market.

I have a good friend there who is an old time rural realtor there who tells me that a lot(?) of people from the D/FW area are looking for somewhat improved property for recreation. Evidently a lot of people can afford 100 or so acres acres but not 500+. I know there's a lot of difference between looking and buying. And, open land isn't selling for as much as for those that are loaded with too many rocks and trees. From a productivity standpoint, my place would be considered junk land. Evidently, deer, turkey, hogs and rattlesnakes are assets. I have 3 small areas that I've cleared for food plots.

IMO, grazing land isn't all that important right now because nobody has any cattle and the price is too high to make financial sense in rebuilding herds. That will continue for awhile.

I agree with the one deer per 20 acres and I sometimes think that's a high estimate. My game cams show a higher density but they come off neighboring places that aren't hunted and the deer aren't fed. That dang sure didn't help me this year due to a massive acorn drop. They ignored wheat, corn, protein, turnips and radishes.

If that appraiser is only looking at the land from a $ productivity standpoint, he/she is right. Drought is also affecting that productivity. And, without either a grazing or wildlife exemption, the taxes alone would kill the deal.

The Bowie, Alvord, and Sunset areas appear to be pretty good investment areas. The expansion of Hwy 380 from Denton to Decatur, new schools, new hospitals, etc means that urban planners are expecting a lot of growth in the Decatur area. Being 30 or so minutes away is getting more valuable/expensive. Thanks to a Super Walmart and their sales taxes, Bowie has new schools and some housing growth.

All this said, my investment in the land has kept us from doing some of the things that non landowners have done over the last 30 years. Our vacations have almost exclusively been on the land and not going elsewhere. Has it been worth it? It has been financially and I have no regrets. If I were younger, I would do it again. Other peoples mileage might vary.

1984 min wage was $3.35 hr/ Min wage was $5.25/hr when I entered the workforce in 2000. We bought a brand new, off the lot ford ext. cab XLT heavy duty powerstroke off the lot in 96', sticker price was $28k

hell my stepdad bought a truck in 02' ford reg. cab V-6 1/2 ton for $15k off the lot
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crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why the flock are yall still talking truck prices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????? junior that's it exit the conversation now!!!!!!!!! subject dad gummitt!!!!!!!!!!!!