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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: J.G.]
#5099589
05/04/14 11:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
How did you mess the quotes up? Lol
99% of new rifles will shoot with factors barrels. Now "shoot" is a broad term.... to some shoot means 1.5 moa, some sub moa, some or 1/2 Moa.
But for the vast majority it means under 1.5.
With that said there is only one way to make sure a rifle stays inline no matter what out side factors may come up. And that's bed it. Bedding never hurts and in will only improve accuracy. The amount of improvement depends on lots of factors (stock type, etc).
Bedding in a manners or mcmillian won't raise its consistency like it would a wood or plastic stock, but still will help improve and gaurd against any outside bumps, heat, etc
Why go through the money and time for a load work up on a platform that doesn't have built in safe gaurds of not performing consistanly?
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: nsmike]
#5099592
05/04/14 11:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262
Karnis
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262 |
I just have a problem with assuming a stock isn't bedded properly. I believe if it isn't broke don't fix it. Even Mr McMillian said 'that a clue to whether a stock should be bedded is whether the rifle would shoot 1 MOA groups'. You can do what you want I'm going to shoot mine first. Why would you assume any are? Remington, Savage, TC, Ruger bed theirs? Winchester is the only one that makes a cursory attempt at it. You've obviously never done it hence you don't recommend it nor understand it. Next up will be why not to bed the B&C because it has a bedding block. Somebody please regale use with that logic.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099593
05/04/14 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
That makes entirely too much sense BoBo starting to sound like Donald Trump
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5099600
05/04/14 11:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262
Karnis
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262 |
Nicely put. Exactly what I've posted since day one.
BMD- post pics of the groups AFTER WE DISASSEMBLED your rigs cleaned barres and reassembled. They shot to essentially the same POI with different bullet weights and new brass. Not to mention different lots of powder.
All you non-bedding gurus hold on to your hair pieces because it actually works. Whodathunkit?
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099601
05/04/14 11:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
One a wood stock.... if you tighten them correctly in houston and then go to AZ for a hunting, they could end up loose... why?
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Karnis]
#5099602
05/04/14 11:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
I just have a problem with assuming a stock isn't bedded properly. I believe if it isn't broke don't fix it. Even Mr McMillian said 'that a clue to whether a stock should be bedded is whether the rifle would shoot 1 MOA groups'. You can do what you want I'm going to shoot mine first. Why would you assume any are? Remington, Savage, TC, Ruger bed theirs? Winchester is the only one that makes a cursory attempt at it. You've obviously never done it hence you don't recommend it nor understand it. Next up will be why not to bed the B&C because it has a bedding block. Somebody please regale use with that logic. Browning tries but consistancy in the process is lacking. The mass mfg's don't do it to keep costs down. Plain and simple.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Dave3575]
#5099605
05/05/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,182
Dave3575
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,182 |
Heck idk. Any of your custom rigs vs my stock unbedded rifle. 5 five shot groups for a total of 25 rounds. Since some one said above it wouldn't do it consistently that should cover it. As many warm up shots as you want. I guess average all five groups. Best average wins. You can pick the yardage from 100-400. Bet is a 12 pack.
Can you tell i made that up as I went along. I'll take this bet. Just a friendly reminder.. I'll take this bet.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Karnis]
#5099609
05/05/14 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
Nicely put. Exactly what I've posted since day one.
BMD- post pics of the groups AFTER WE DISASSEMBLED your rigs cleaned barres and reassembled. They shot to essentially the same POI with different bullet weights and new brass. Not to mention different lots of powder.
All you non-bedding gurus hold on to your hair pieces because it actually works. Whodathunkit? .300 win mag Stock 7/08 bedded in b&c by Karnis as well as the .300 in McMillan bedded by Karnis, and the 7/08 group is with different oal and different bullet weights after all was taken apart and reassembled, think without bedding it would be same results. I think not!
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: BMD]
#5099617
05/05/14 12:11 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210 |
So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth. Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: J.G.]
#5099620
05/05/14 12:14 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth. Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws. What does a sucker rod fence built in winter look like in summer if they didn't use expansion joints?
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099637
05/05/14 12:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262
Karnis
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262 |
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: J.G.]
#5099642
05/05/14 12:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262
Karnis
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 262 |
So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth. Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws. The first step before shooting any rifle is addressing screws, bedding, FF, etc. You continue to say tightening screws then shooting and finding it won't shoot is the way to go. For a self proclained LR shooting guru you give no useful advice. Just admit it. You send someone a check for $5000 and tell them to build you one and the thump your chest about your 15lb rifle that shoot little groups. Nobody cares about your 15lb rifles. Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots. This is about the OPs 8.5lb sporter and everyone else's sporter that is reading this thread. It's painfully obvious your recommendations leave little to be desired.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Karnis]
#5099645
05/05/14 12:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099648
05/05/14 12:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,541 |
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099672
05/05/14 12:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,743
603Country
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,743 |
It seems like on most forums I frequent, there's always an irritating somebody that has something to prove or needs the last word. What's all that about? Give it a rest Karnis.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: 603Country]
#5099696
05/05/14 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
It seems like on most forums I frequent, there's always an irritating somebody that has something to prove or needs the last word. What's all that about? Give it a rest Karnis. This helps how?
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5099703
05/05/14 01:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210 |
A barrel of snakes.
OP, wasn't waiting from 40F weather to 100F weather to try this out.
I really don't get why everyone is so ticked about a suggestion made that cost the OP zero dollars.
AND IT WORKED!! WE WERE RIGHT!!!
Be men and accept that fact.
Now will the rifle shoot even tighter if it were bedded? Pretty good chance that is a yes. Especially in a wood stock that will expand and contract in various weather conditions. Go back and re-read that he is scrapping the stock. Why should he have bedded a stock he is getting rid of anyway. That makes no sense.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099714
05/05/14 01:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
Reality is no mention of getting new stock til way late. And we can all agree that a properly bedded rifle is better than not.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Dave3575]
#5099817
05/05/14 02:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,229
wp75169
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,229 |
Heck idk. Any of your custom rigs vs my stock unbedded rifle. 5 five shot groups for a total of 25 rounds. Since some one said above it wouldn't do it consistently that should cover it. As many warm up shots as you want. I guess average all five groups. Best average wins. You can pick the yardage from 100-400. Bet is a 12 pack.
Can you tell i made that up as I went along. I'll take this bet. Just a friendly reminder.. I'll take this bet. I'll gladly take a beating from you. I've had my hands full. My wife was in a pretty nasty wreck. She's fine but the truck is totaled. Anyway I'm just getting back to this thread. Let's shoot for sometime in June. Where do you like to shoot? What kind of beer do you drink? Wasn't planning in shooting against a competition shooter but I will make a showing. Edit: BMD I tried to talk her into looking at a dodge but she's stuck on getting another ecoboost.
Last edited by wp75169; 05/05/14 02:57 AM.
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099837
05/05/14 02:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
Sorry to hear about the wreck glad she is ok, I haven't really had any serious problems with my ecoboost, I am just a dodge guy that slips up from time to time and buys a ford
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099861
05/05/14 03:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,373
Bullfrog
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,373 |
Fireman, I care about your 15 pound rifles. I dig em!
Last edited by Bullfrog; 05/05/14 03:23 AM.
Man if I knew what Oxner knows I could throw away what I know
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Karnis]
#5099873
05/05/14 03:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210 |
So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth. Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws. The first step before shooting any rifle is addressing screws, bedding, FF, etc. You continue to say tightening screws then shooting and finding it won't shoot is the way to go. For a self proclained LR shooting guru you give no useful advice. Just admit it. You send someone a check for $5000 and tell them to build you one and the thump your chest about your 15lb rifle that shoot little groups. Nobody cares about your 15lb rifles. Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots. This is about the OPs 8.5lb sporter and everyone else's sporter that is reading this thread. It's painfully obvious your recommendations leave little to be desired. I've been ignoring you, and you are still insulting me, so I will reply to your dumbazz. I'm not self proclaimed, I shot out to 800 yards yesterday, and the day before that, and three other times last week. You? I purchased a Savage 10 chambered in 308 Win, and learned to hand-load with it, and leared to shoot long range with it. Hit 1 MOA steel at 1K with an unmodified rifle. Then won CDI bottom metal at a rifle match. I inletted that Savage stock myself with my mill and file work. Then ordered a McMillan A-5. Once it arrived it had fitment issues, I corrected that myself, again, with files. Then decided I wanted more BC and more velocity and ordered an Obermeyer 6.5 mm with a 1:8.5" twist. My gunsmith who is a nice guy, unlike you, did the machining for free and centered to .0005" dual indicating. And I stood beside him through the whole process learning volumes about operating a lathe, since I also have one of those as well. When he needs steel fab work and welding done I do the work for him for free, so we trade. No internet order or phone call made on my rifles, and no $5000 bill for them. I worked up the next load with 130 Bergers. Once the barrel broke in and sped up, I worked up another load with 140 A-maxes. And have shot that rifle with that load from 20F to 105F prone, seated, kneeling, offhand, and using what ever structure is available to make a shot. That action/ trigger now has 4000 rounds on it, and it's still going strong. "Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots" Yes you put an "S" on the end you're so smart. That is incorrect. I work up loads at 500 yards and see what a load not within the node of the sine wave produces, so you again are wrong. I am not explaining this to you, I am explaining this to anyone that is new that does not know you are full of chit. You come on here and show how obvious it is how small of a man you are. And you threaten and insult anyone else that has knowledge on the same subject you do, a clear sign of insecurity. You invent the tales of your demented version of the truth that you simply fabricated from your mentally ill mind. You also make statements that myself, Chad, and Dave don't know anything since it is not your way. We do know what we are talking about, and we are not gathering this information from the internet and/ or books. The information we share is from the field; rifle range, and hunting. They are nice guys and very accomplished, and knowledable riflemen. They, and I, also provide help when someone asks for it. When a person makes a post here they are seeking help, and it is our choice to provide the help they seek. If what we contribute does not suit you, move on. Don't tell us we are stupid, and don't know what we are talking about, because it is simply a steady stream of lies. Go away. A large group of people around here hate your guts and liver. I've already recieved PM's with rifle/ hand-loading/ optics/ and shooting questions that would've been asked publicly had it not been for the existence of Karnis and BMD ruining countless threads.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: Bullfrog]
#5099874
05/05/14 03:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,210 |
Fireman, I care about your 15 pound rifles. I dig em! Why, thank you. They aren't all 15 pounds, just one
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: J.G.]
#5099906
05/05/14 03:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322
BMD
Silver Spoon
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Silver Spoon
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 41,322 |
So jg you saying bedding is better or not? You kinda talk out both sides your mouth. Bedded is better. But when a pretty good rifle that should shoot won't shoot, bedding is not the first step to correct the problem. Not both sides of my mouth, you have not paid attention throughout. I've never suggested bedding is bad, and that it will hurt anything. Out of the box rifles now days shoot pretty darn well without bedding. So why wouldn't this one? Simple fix, loose action screws. Bedded or not no rifle will shoot with loose action screws. The first step before shooting any rifle is addressing screws, bedding, FF, etc. You continue to say tightening screws then shooting and finding it won't shoot is the way to go. For a self proclained LR shooting guru you give no useful advice. Just admit it. You send someone a check for $5000 and tell them to build you one and the thump your chest about your 15lb rifle that shoot little groups. Nobody cares about your 15lb rifles. Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots. This is about the OPs 8.5lb sporter and everyone else's sporter that is reading this thread. It's painfully obvious your recommendations leave little to be desired. I've been ignoring you, and you are still insulting me, so I will reply to your dumbazz. I'm not self proclaimed, I shot out to 800 yards yesterday, and the day before that, and three other times last week. You? I purchased a Savage 10 chambered in 308 Win, and learned to hand-load with it, and leared to shoot long range with it. Hit 1 MOA steel at 1K with an unmodified rifle. Then won CDI bottom metal at a rifle match. I inletted that Savage stock myself with my mill and file work. Then ordered a McMillan A-5. Once it arrived it had fitment issues, I corrected that myself, again, with files. Then decided I wanted more BC and more velocity and ordered an Obermeyer 6.5 mm with a 1:8.5" twist. My gunsmith who is a nice guy, unlike you, did the machining for free and centered to .0005" dual indicating. And I stood beside him through the whole process learning volumes about operating a lathe, since I also have one of those as well. When he needs steel fab work and welding done I do the work for him for free, so we trade. No internet order or phone call made on my rifles, and no $5000 bill for them. I worked up the next load with 130 Bergers. Once the barrel broke in and sped up, I worked up another load with 140 A-maxes. And have shot that rifle with that load from 20F to 105F prone, seated, kneeling, offhand, and using what ever structure is available to make a shot. That action/ trigger now has 4000 rounds on it, and it's still going strong. "Any numbnuts can make something like that shoots" Yes you put an "S" on the end you're so smart. That is incorrect. I work up loads at 500 yards and see what a load not within the node of the sine wave produces, so you again are wrong. I am not explaining this to you, I am explaining this to anyone that is new that does not know you are full of chit. You come on here and show how obvious it is how small of a man you are. And you threaten and insult anyone else that has knowledge on the same subject you do, a clear sign of insecurity. You invent the tales of your demented version of the truth that you simply fabricated from your mentally ill mind. You also make statements that myself, Chad, and Dave don't know anything since it is not your way. We do know what we are talking about, and we are not gathering this information from the internet and/ or books. The information we share is from the field; rifle range, and hunting. They are nice guys and very accomplished, and knowledable riflemen. They, and I, also provide help when someone asks for it. When a person makes a post here they are seeking help, and it is our choice to provide the help they seek. If what we contribute does not suit you, move on. Don't tell us we are stupid, and don't know what we are talking about, because it is simply a steady stream of lies. Go away. A large group of people around here hate your guts and liver. I've already recieved PM's with rifle/ hand-loading/ optics/ and shooting questions that would've been asked publicly had it not been for the existence of Karnis and BMD ruining countless threads. Really. And you think we haven't received plenty of pm's about you as well. You don't know me or Karnis. And who is getting upset now because we believe and will continue believe that bedding a rifle is always better than not. Sure that lil rant was really good for business Please continue by all means...
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Re: Need Help getting a rifle to group!
[Re: ltsheets]
#5099921
05/05/14 04:16 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669
cody
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,669 |
Mine's only 3.5"...but it's as big a round as a tuna can.
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