Anyone have any knowledge of Dark Timber Kennels and Justin Craig?

I have never dealt with them personally, but I have seen them mentioned on the forum a few times. I have never seen anybody have anything bad to say.

Jason Craig not Justin.

Yes I have my second dog with him now. Over the past 18 months I have watched him train many dogs. He instinctively knows exactly what to do next. Whether to take them to the next step or continue to work the current task at hand. I have learned a lot to say the least.

He has some great pups for the price too!

You can find better bred pups at better prices, I don't know about his training skills

Shot Gun Willie, from what breeder and what price range??

Are you looking?

Me

The price of his pups, they should have fabulous pedigrees and come out of field champion sires or at least master hunters/QAA dogs.

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Are you looking? [/quote]

I'm in the market for a 2nd retriever and just found his site.

Not currently, but, I did like their "build a dog" option.....

Do you have a website?

WOW!!! I finally looked at the pedigrees on the website and I agree. He must be a better business man than me is all I can say. Gotta give the guy props though if he's able to do it.

Google Railroad Retrievers, some older info but I'm updating it soon, I've been side tracked lately

No, I wouldn't say better business man.

Yep, those prices are ridiculous.

According to entry express he has only run junior and senior. He has no master passes and his stud dog is just running senior level as of this month.

Those prices are ridiculous. I know of litters on the ground by and out of titled dogs with FC AFCs in the second generation for less than half those prices. Good marketing(read: talks a big game). Looks like all hat and no cattle to me.

Yep. Suckers are born everyday.

I was looking for a dog for a client today and I saw an ad that he had posted. Said he was looking for a "yellow that was black factored". Sheesh! And this guys a "breeder". I won't normally say a negative thing about another trainer/breeder but I can't stand people that try to take advantage of inexperience. Thought I would share.

I looked at their website and was AMAZED!!
He is asking ridiculous prices for unproven started dogs. he wants $9500 for a dog that he "CLAIMS" will be ready to hunt this fall.
He has pups priced at ridiculous prices for the dogs he is breeding.
What floored me was his breeding practices.
He has pups out of "Jessie" who has a middling at best pedigree and has done NOTHING. Worst of all Jessie was not yet two years old when she had these pups. Even worse the website states that she throws great pups;leading me to believe that he has bred this bitch twice before she was even old enough to have OFA tests done on her hips.
The stud of these puppies is "Bo". Bo didn't even get tested by OFA until after these puppies were born.

That folks is the epitome of a breeder who is only interested in $$$$; not in responsible breeding.

Additionally Bo has been run in 4 Jr Hunt tests and 1 Sr Hunt Test. He failed 2 of the 4 Jrs and failed the only Sr he ran. Pretty piss poor performance for any dog. That record would show that the dog is not suitable to be used as a stud.

If you are interested in some great puppies, I know of a litter just born a few days ago, that is out of two great dogs. The sire has his MH without ever failing a test He is QAA and won the largest Amateur SRS ever. He has been on National TV numerous times on ESPN, Versus and NBC Sports.
The Dam is also MH QAA. She won the first and only Qualifying Field Trial she ever ran as the youngest dog in the field. She also set the record as the youngest Finalist ever at the SRS Both sire and Dam are Proven hunters used as professional guides on upland and waterfowl for 4+ months a year. Both are proven breeders who throw hunting retrieving machines. I believe these pups will be priced at or below what Dark Timber is asking for their pups

I'm not a basher of breeders, bad ones only exist if people buy from them.
This thread should be about the need to do your homework, or have a mentor if your shopping around for your first pup.

Man some guys crack me up!!! The irony is that not one of my clients is on here complaining, just people who have never dealt with us. That should speak volumes.
Hope y'all have a great hunting season this year.

Actually Bo has never failed a test. I just wasn't able to make the other tests. Just for informational purposes.

What is it that you find amusing? Were there any errors in my post? Was Jessie not just one year old when she had this litter? How many litters has she had to date at her young age? Isn't it true that you can't even have dogs tested for OFA clearances until they are 2 yrs old? Is it not true that Bo was not tested and didn't have his OFA"s done at the time you bred him? Is it not true that it can be dangerous to breed a bitch so young? Do you feel that breeding her at this young age offers any advantages to potential puppy buyers; or the breed as a whole? If so please share that info with the OFA, AKC, the Kennel Club and all the rest of us otherwise uninformed mouth breathing idiots whom you are amused by

Is it not true that you are asking $9500 for a dog based on what abilities he will allegedly have at a point far in the future from his current abilities and training? Do you feel that is fair and equitable? Is it not true that you list this dog as having "EXPECTED CLEARANCES" of good hips and normal elbows? Do you have a crystal ball that is superior to Veterinarian taken xrays that are further evaluated by a panel of other specially trained veterinarians. How can you pre suppose clearances, particularly in view of the fact that neither the the sire or dam had been tested when you bred them?
Isn't it far less likely that a puppy can acquire those future abilities if he is coming from parents who have yet to demonstrate those abilities under objective judgement? More particularly when these pups are supposed to acquire those abilities from THE SAME TRAINER {that would be YOU} who has yet to objectively demonstrate the ability to impart those abilities to either the sire or the dam? Wouldn't it be far more fair and practical to wait to sell that finished dog until he actually can demonstrate that he currently has these presumed abilities and training levels?

Please tell me whether you believe I am wrong on the questions I've posed. If on the other hand you believe that my questions of your breeding habits for supposed field performance dogs are legitimate then please explain what it is that you are amused by.

We all are aware that there are some uninformed buyers, breeders out there. Likewise there are also unscrupulous breeders and trainers out there.

Does your amusement stem from the fact that you are willing & able to take advantage of the uninformed and sell them an overpriced animal that may not be as healthy and suitable for their purposes as could be offered by more responsible breeders/trainers? If so I find your attitude and actions despicable. If not then please enlighten me

You aren't selling an appliance; you are selling a living being who should become a healthy beloved and capable hunting companion for years to come. What will be the fallout when and if that dog becomes displastic, crippled or otherwise incapable of meeting their needs at an early age, due to irresponsible practices

My post was designed to warn and educate the uninformed about the unscrupulous.

It appears I may have missed my mark in your case; hopefully some buyers can be forewarned to educate themselves so as to avoid being taken advantage of.

Rest assured that me and my well bred, well trained healthy dogs and I fully intend to have another great hunting season this year

I love how you are putting words in my mouth. I never should have posted a response. I should have just let the comments roll off with no offense. You assume my comments were directed at you, they weren't, but you obviously took offense.
My amusement is from the guys who call me to buy their dogs, who are posting here knocking me. And those who call me to buy dogs, and are knocking me here. They're super nice to me in person and on the phone. Stab you in the back when they think they can post anonymously.
As for the price of my dogs, heck yes they are pricey. And if you owned one of my dogs, you'd understand why. We don't build trial dogs, we don't build hunt test dogs. We build high end hunting/house dogs.
We stand behind every one of our dogs for years. We guarantee hips, elbows and eyes. If a client doesn't like a dog (which has never happened), they can bring them back for a full refund.
We offer lifetime support if their dog needs to have some additional training and they just have a question.
Unlike a lot of guys who claim to be trainers or breeders and who have full time jobs, we do not. We only do two things in the world, Ducks and Dogs. Period.
All of our dogs are well bred, but if they're not to your liking, we don't take offense. I tell all of my clients to make sure that they are picking the right dog, even if they're not from us.
It's easy to try to prop up oneself by tearing down another. As you see, we are still not doing that. If you have nice dogs, good for you.
My dogs stand for themselves. That's why my clients are happy. That's why they keep coming back.
No need to be anonymous here. No need to hide behind a forum
My name is Jason Craig
I own and run Dark Timber Kennels and am proud to say that out loud.
I do not feel the need to hide.
Who are you?

Well sadly you didn't answer one single question that was posed and I think they were rather legitimate questions, especially concerning the health and breeding viability of particular animals.

It sure is easy to say you "build hunting dogs". A totally subjective platitude. I've found in both horses and dogs if someone hides behind not competing because they just want to provide animals for people's enjoyment it more often than not means they aren't capable. On top of that if you are asking 9500 for a dog that can't trial much less HT then you are ripping people off. If your retort is that he can, then get out there and prove it yourself under judgement.

"Well bred" is another somewhat subjective topic. However it is quite clear that there are many titled, health certified and proven animals being bred that are priced more fairly than what you personally deem "well bred". It is fair and valid to point that out to people asking so that they understand what is actually available to them.

You say, "We stand behind every one of our dogs for years. We guarantee hips, elbows and eyes. If a client doesn't like a dog (which has never happened), they can bring them back for a full refund."

But only within the first 24 hours according to your own website.

Directly from your website

IF, AFTER 24 HOURS, YOU DECIDE THAT THIS IS THE DOG FOR YOU, THEN CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW FAMILY MEMBER. IF YOU DECIDE THAT THIS IS NOT THE DOG FOR YOU, JUST SHIP HIM OR HER BACK TO US AND UPON INSPECTION, WE WILL RETURN THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE DOG. YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL COSTS OTHER THAN THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE DOG, INCLUDING SHIPPING FEES, VET FEES, ETC.

Again, who are you?