Dark Timber Kennels

Anyone have any knowledge of Dark Timber Kennels and Justin Craig?

I have never dealt with them personally, but I have seen them mentioned on the forum a few times. I have never seen anybody have anything bad to say.

Jason Craig not Justin.

Yes I have my second dog with him now. Over the past 18 months I have watched him train many dogs. He instinctively knows exactly what to do next. Whether to take them to the next step or continue to work the current task at hand. I have learned a lot to say the least.

He has some great pups for the price too!

You can find better bred pups at better prices, I don't know about his training skills

Shot Gun Willie, from what breeder and what price range??

Are you looking?

Me

The price of his pups, they should have fabulous pedigrees and come out of field champion sires or at least master hunters/QAA dogs.

[/quote]
Are you looking? [/quote]

I'm in the market for a 2nd retriever and just found his site.

Not currently, but, I did like their "build a dog" option.....

Do you have a website?

WOW!!! I finally looked at the pedigrees on the website and I agree. He must be a better business man than me is all I can say. Gotta give the guy props though if he's able to do it.

Google Railroad Retrievers, some older info but I'm updating it soon, I've been side tracked lately

No, I wouldn't say better business man.

Yep, those prices are ridiculous.

According to entry express he has only run junior and senior. He has no master passes and his stud dog is just running senior level as of this month.

Those prices are ridiculous. I know of litters on the ground by and out of titled dogs with FC AFCs in the second generation for less than half those prices. Good marketing(read: talks a big game). Looks like all hat and no cattle to me.

Yep. Suckers are born everyday.

I was looking for a dog for a client today and I saw an ad that he had posted. Said he was looking for a "yellow that was black factored". Sheesh! And this guys a "breeder". I won't normally say a negative thing about another trainer/breeder but I can't stand people that try to take advantage of inexperience. Thought I would share.

I looked at their website and was AMAZED!!
He is asking ridiculous prices for unproven started dogs. he wants $9500 for a dog that he "CLAIMS" will be ready to hunt this fall.
He has pups priced at ridiculous prices for the dogs he is breeding.
What floored me was his breeding practices.
He has pups out of "Jessie" who has a middling at best pedigree and has done NOTHING. Worst of all Jessie was not yet two years old when she had these pups. Even worse the website states that she throws great pups;leading me to believe that he has bred this bitch twice before she was even old enough to have OFA tests done on her hips.
The stud of these puppies is "Bo". Bo didn't even get tested by OFA until after these puppies were born.

That folks is the epitome of a breeder who is only interested in $$$$; not in responsible breeding.

Additionally Bo has been run in 4 Jr Hunt tests and 1 Sr Hunt Test. He failed 2 of the 4 Jrs and failed the only Sr he ran. Pretty piss poor performance for any dog. That record would show that the dog is not suitable to be used as a stud.

If you are interested in some great puppies, I know of a litter just born a few days ago, that is out of two great dogs. The sire has his MH without ever failing a test He is QAA and won the largest Amateur SRS ever. He has been on National TV numerous times on ESPN, Versus and NBC Sports.
The Dam is also MH QAA. She won the first and only Qualifying Field Trial she ever ran as the youngest dog in the field. She also set the record as the youngest Finalist ever at the SRS Both sire and Dam are Proven hunters used as professional guides on upland and waterfowl for 4+ months a year. Both are proven breeders who throw hunting retrieving machines. I believe these pups will be priced at or below what Dark Timber is asking for their pups

I'm not a basher of breeders, bad ones only exist if people buy from them.
This thread should be about the need to do your homework, or have a mentor if your shopping around for your first pup.

Man some guys crack me up!!! The irony is that not one of my clients is on here complaining, just people who have never dealt with us. That should speak volumes.
Hope y'all have a great hunting season this year.

Actually Bo has never failed a test. I just wasn't able to make the other tests. Just for informational purposes.

What is it that you find amusing? Were there any errors in my post? Was Jessie not just one year old when she had this litter? How many litters has she had to date at her young age? Isn't it true that you can't even have dogs tested for OFA clearances until they are 2 yrs old? Is it not true that Bo was not tested and didn't have his OFA"s done at the time you bred him? Is it not true that it can be dangerous to breed a bitch so young? Do you feel that breeding her at this young age offers any advantages to potential puppy buyers; or the breed as a whole? If so please share that info with the OFA, AKC, the Kennel Club and all the rest of us otherwise uninformed mouth breathing idiots whom you are amused by

Is it not true that you are asking $9500 for a dog based on what abilities he will allegedly have at a point far in the future from his current abilities and training? Do you feel that is fair and equitable? Is it not true that you list this dog as having "EXPECTED CLEARANCES" of good hips and normal elbows? Do you have a crystal ball that is superior to Veterinarian taken xrays that are further evaluated by a panel of other specially trained veterinarians. How can you pre suppose clearances, particularly in view of the fact that neither the the sire or dam had been tested when you bred them?
Isn't it far less likely that a puppy can acquire those future abilities if he is coming from parents who have yet to demonstrate those abilities under objective judgement? More particularly when these pups are supposed to acquire those abilities from THE SAME TRAINER {that would be YOU} who has yet to objectively demonstrate the ability to impart those abilities to either the sire or the dam? Wouldn't it be far more fair and practical to wait to sell that finished dog until he actually can demonstrate that he currently has these presumed abilities and training levels?

Please tell me whether you believe I am wrong on the questions I've posed. If on the other hand you believe that my questions of your breeding habits for supposed field performance dogs are legitimate then please explain what it is that you are amused by.

We all are aware that there are some uninformed buyers, breeders out there. Likewise there are also unscrupulous breeders and trainers out there.

Does your amusement stem from the fact that you are willing & able to take advantage of the uninformed and sell them an overpriced animal that may not be as healthy and suitable for their purposes as could be offered by more responsible breeders/trainers? If so I find your attitude and actions despicable. If not then please enlighten me

You aren't selling an appliance; you are selling a living being who should become a healthy beloved and capable hunting companion for years to come. What will be the fallout when and if that dog becomes displastic, crippled or otherwise incapable of meeting their needs at an early age, due to irresponsible practices

My post was designed to warn and educate the uninformed about the unscrupulous.

It appears I may have missed my mark in your case; hopefully some buyers can be forewarned to educate themselves so as to avoid being taken advantage of.

Rest assured that me and my well bred, well trained healthy dogs and I fully intend to have another great hunting season this year

I love how you are putting words in my mouth. I never should have posted a response. I should have just let the comments roll off with no offense. You assume my comments were directed at you, they weren't, but you obviously took offense.
My amusement is from the guys who call me to buy their dogs, who are posting here knocking me. And those who call me to buy dogs, and are knocking me here. They're super nice to me in person and on the phone. Stab you in the back when they think they can post anonymously.
As for the price of my dogs, heck yes they are pricey. And if you owned one of my dogs, you'd understand why. We don't build trial dogs, we don't build hunt test dogs. We build high end hunting/house dogs.
We stand behind every one of our dogs for years. We guarantee hips, elbows and eyes. If a client doesn't like a dog (which has never happened), they can bring them back for a full refund.
We offer lifetime support if their dog needs to have some additional training and they just have a question.
Unlike a lot of guys who claim to be trainers or breeders and who have full time jobs, we do not. We only do two things in the world, Ducks and Dogs. Period.
All of our dogs are well bred, but if they're not to your liking, we don't take offense. I tell all of my clients to make sure that they are picking the right dog, even if they're not from us.
It's easy to try to prop up oneself by tearing down another. As you see, we are still not doing that. If you have nice dogs, good for you.
My dogs stand for themselves. That's why my clients are happy. That's why they keep coming back.
No need to be anonymous here. No need to hide behind a forum
My name is Jason Craig
I own and run Dark Timber Kennels and am proud to say that out loud.
I do not feel the need to hide.
Who are you?

Well sadly you didn't answer one single question that was posed and I think they were rather legitimate questions, especially concerning the health and breeding viability of particular animals.

It sure is easy to say you "build hunting dogs". A totally subjective platitude. I've found in both horses and dogs if someone hides behind not competing because they just want to provide animals for people's enjoyment it more often than not means they aren't capable. On top of that if you are asking 9500 for a dog that can't trial much less HT then you are ripping people off. If your retort is that he can, then get out there and prove it yourself under judgement.

"Well bred" is another somewhat subjective topic. However it is quite clear that there are many titled, health certified and proven animals being bred that are priced more fairly than what you personally deem "well bred". It is fair and valid to point that out to people asking so that they understand what is actually available to them.

You say, "We stand behind every one of our dogs for years. We guarantee hips, elbows and eyes. If a client doesn't like a dog (which has never happened), they can bring them back for a full refund."

But only within the first 24 hours according to your own website.

Directly from your website

IF, AFTER 24 HOURS, YOU DECIDE THAT THIS IS THE DOG FOR YOU, THEN CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW FAMILY MEMBER. IF YOU DECIDE THAT THIS IS NOT THE DOG FOR YOU, JUST SHIP HIM OR HER BACK TO US AND UPON INSPECTION, WE WILL RETURN THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE DOG. YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL COSTS OTHER THAN THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE DOG, INCLUDING SHIPPING FEES, VET FEES, ETC.

Again, who are you?

He's a professional wrestler.....

Well Kamron Horn, I didn't ask for his profession. I simply asked for his name, for him to own his comments to the world about a man he's never met. I didn't even ask him to take them back. He is entitled to any opinion he wants. I'm not the speech police here. Half of the guys on the post, including you, were knocking me and then trying to sell a dog in the process.

Never knocked you once, but that's okay, perhaps you would call it irony...

And using my name doesn't bother me....

That's good. That's how it should be.

My name is Cory.

Hi Cory, now don't you feel better....

And for the record there's a clear and distinctive difference between knocking some ones business and stating facts....

I agree, and I do feel better thanks. I think the most valuable lesson here is research. A dog is an investment of money, time, and patience...among other things. Just like a car or home you have to do your research or kick yourself down the road. Owning a dog is a great responsibility and me personally I hold the breeders to great standards as well.

ACTUALLY Mr Dark Timber there is a thing called Entry Express that tracks the results of HT's and FT's. They are entrusted by the National Retriever Club to do so
They list the dogs that placed in FT's and also keep track of HT results

For HT's they list "PASS" for the dogs that met their minimum standards
For dogs that didn't meet their minimum standard they either list "FAIL" or they leave it blank
For dogs that didn't run the test they list as a "SCRATCH"

Bo is never listed as a scratch in the their system. He also has three listing where he did not get credited with a pass. That would mean that he "FAILED"

If you disagree with their records, then I'd suggest that you take it up with them. While you are at it maybe you can get the AKC, the OFA, and The Kennel Club to come around to your way of thinking as to responsible breeding. I caution you that convincing these dog authorities may take some time. I would suggest that you do it in the evenings so that it won't interfere with your daylight dog working hours. I'm guessing the pros who actually got passes in uper levels while Bo was failing in lower levels were actually using todays daylight hours to train their dogs, as opposed to dodging questions on the internet

Although you say "Bo has never failed a test", their records disagree and say he has failed 3 of the 5 tests he ran

Now why don't you quit dodging the questions I asked you before. As opposed to dodging the questions, why don't you answer them for us all. My name and the other posters who posted on this thread are actually irrelevant to the OP. I believe the questions I posed to you are actually quite relevant to the OP's thread.

Lastly I would tell you that successful businesses become successful by being ethical and honest

I don’t have a horse in this race but boy this is crazy. I am in a profession that has a wide range of pricing set by the individual. I used to blast the guys for charging what I thought was outrageous pricings. As I got older I realized that pricing is subjective and it didn’t matter what a person qualifications are as long as the customer is happy with what they purchase and the price they paid then that was an acceptable price. Price is just one factor in a person’s decision to pick one pup over another. Who knows maybe Dark Timber Kennels has phenomenal dogs, Maybe they have a phenomenal reputation, Maybe the guy is just a phenomenal sales person. What ever it is the price is between the seller and the buyer.
As far as health goes it seams to me that the breeder is guaranteeing the pups so what more do you need?

Just my 2 cents

Your comp record, your dogs comp record, the breeding age of your dogs, the lack of OFA clearances on your dogs when bred, the price of an untrained animal offered for sale by you, your dogs pedigrees, and your 24 hour guarantee(posted from your website) are not opinions. They are facts, that people have raised legitimate questions about.

In part you are correct. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay. However there are ethics involved that trump that. When someone puts themselves out there as a professional they have a certain duty to hold themselves to an ethical standard. I have seen too many times where unscrupulous professionals are nothing more than salesman. They are a detriment to the animals and to unsuspecting and inexperienced people who are trying to get in the game. Newbie comes along and wants to get in the game. They go to "pro" and get sold a bill of goods along with an overpriced animal. They get burned and leave the game. It's hurts all of us not to mention the animals that shouldn't be being bred saturating the market with low value animals that need homes.

The questions asked in this thread of DKT are prudent questions that should be asked. If the OP, and others reading, have learned some of the right questions to ask, and things to look for then it was worth it whether Mr Craig wants to answer them or not.

Again I don’t have any connection to the poster or Kennel. Obviously if there are some concerns with what a person publishes on a website then yes they should either correct the mistake or be able to explain what they posted. But that again is between the buyer and the seller and I do agree this post most likely has created some awareness in questions that should be asked before purchasing a pup
As far as the OP goes, their original question was “Anyone have any knowledge of Dark Timber Kennels and Justin Craig” The only people that responded where ones that had personnel knowledge of the kennel and the person and all there responses were positive, and I did not see any negative comments about the Kennel, or the person. Then only ones that responded negatively where breeders them selves advertising puppies, and again since price and value is what the buyer is comfortable with, the only negative is incorrect information on a website.
Again just my opinion

Not just incorrect info. The unethical breeding of under age animals, along with no OFA Certs. Price is subjective to a degree but market value for animals of a certain pedigree and ability is fairly easily definable within the space. The OP and others should be aware that there are alternatives, viable, proven alternatives at a lower price point. I'm not a breeder. I've never sold a pup to anyone.

There is a great article on the DU website titled “5 Key Points for Training Your Retriever” written by Robert Milner. The article describes how the Hunt Test/Field Trail environment and the increasing ability of trainers are masking poor genetics and are producing titled dogs that are a poor representation of the breed. I am not saying that all are this way but just because they have an SHR, HR, HRCH, GRHRCH, JH, SH, MH or FC title does not make them breeding stock

Again just my opinion

By Robert Milner. Enough said.

Robert Milner is not an unbiased source. He trains without the use of the e-collar and his dogs can't really compete with the quality of dogs you see running in Field Trials or the higher levels of Hunt test. So I wouldn't doubt for a second he's going to say things like that about his competition. If his dogs are superior to those dogs then why doesn't he enter some test/trials and prove it.

Titles don't tell the whole story but they help show the ability of the genetics. It's on the breeder to be ethical and try and better the breed.

Yep he sells his own snake oil.

He has a point, Robert Milner and his connection to Wildrose should be a red flag, every article is a push for the British lab and they down the American Field bred retriever

Sure, but is he wrong? Just because you disagree with his opinion on English versus American doesn't discredit his point of the increase ability of trainers overcoming a lack of natural traights found in labs. Again im not saying one opinion is right or wrong but blasting a guy over price is a lttle much. If you want to bring up health certs I would like to see proof of a dog from this guy that has health problems that he did not make righ then I will changey opinion . If not then let the people that know the guy make recomendations either good or bad

Titles don't tell the whole story but they help show the ability of the genetics. It's on the breeder to be ethical and try and better the breed. [/quote]


I agree with this.

Sorry but when people are breeding under age animals it should be pointed out. In today's world people breeding labs without OFA health certs is unacceptable and should be called out. It is unethical from a pure animal standpoint and a detriment to the breed.

As for Milner, He is completely biased and has an agenda to denigrate the FT/HT dogs. Does a title tell the whole story, no, but a FC AFC is pretty darn good indicator of a dogs ability to do the job and its train ability. The trainers get better, the dogs get better, the tests get harder and the titles more competitive. Milner can't compete so he pushes his agenda so he can continue selling pups against his competition.

I certainly would say that no dog can perform to its maximum if it’s unhealthy. But before we throw out words like "unethical" we owe it to be able to prove what we say about someone is true.

Again the OP asked if anyone had Knowledge of this kennel and this person. To that I would have to say No. I don’t know him or his Kennel, Good luck