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Stocker Does
#4745451
11/13/13 06:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 73
jashle
OP
Outdoorsman
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OP
Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 73 |
So I was thinking of an idea of how to introduce better genetics on my ranch. First let me set the scene. This is a 300 acre ranch inside a 10,000 acre LF co-op. Our Neighbors own 400 acres and 200 acres. We have rolling hills that seperate much of these ranches into subsections and creek bottoms with thick cover. Everyone supplement feeds year round and hunts under good conservative harvesting tactics.
My idea is to introduce a (tagged) doe with good breeder genetics into the herd once a year with the idea that no one shoots the tagged doe and we let it spread the bred genetics to improve the population.
I know this is a long term project so please dont shoot holes in my idea just because its not going to produce 160" deer next year. I am aware of this just want to see if anyone has a serious concern or objection as to why spending a $1000 on a breeder doe is any worse than spending a $1000 on protein in the off season
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jashle]
#4745460
11/13/13 06:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,764
Sneaky
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,764 |
I've thought about doing something similar. I have a feeling that the results would be minimal, at best.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: Sneaky]
#4745469
11/13/13 06:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416 |
Interesting idea as long as the neighbors play by the rules. Would certainly take some time, as you noted. Maybe two breeders a year, for 3-5 years, would quicken things up a bit?
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jdk1985]
#4745474
11/13/13 06:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416 |
On the other hand, what is going on with the other 9100 acres?
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: Sneaky]
#4745476
11/13/13 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 19,498
Erathkid
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 19,498 |
We have a couple that our high fenced neighbor released. I've yet to see them with fawns though. Maybe they're dry? IMO $1000 is too much to spend to have them run off, possibly never to be seen again.
Life is too short, as is. Don't chance it. Don't text and drive.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jdk1985]
#4745488
11/13/13 06:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: Erathkid]
#4745490
11/13/13 06:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,213
tShawnB
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,213 |
Very minimal results, not worth the 1000 bucks IMO.
How come everybody I meet is a deer hunting expert?
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: stxranchman]
#4745506
11/13/13 06:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. That's helpful, and does a better job getting at what I was thinking when I suggested more than one/year.
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: stxranchman]
#4745531
11/13/13 06:43 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,817
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,817 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. X2
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jdk1985]
#4745541
11/13/13 06:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. That's helpful, and does a better job getting at what I was thinking when I suggested more than one/year. Your assumassuming they will stay on 300acres, and your assuming the will survive long enought to fawn. Also even if they fawn on your place genetics most likely will no remain after dispersal
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: stxranchman]
#4745562
11/13/13 06:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494
817cd
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. I think the idea is the doe is bred before release so the offspring would be 100% but 1 doe is not enough. You can buy some from breeders for cheap in the spring. They usually have a surplus and have to eliminate them for costs giving you negotiating power. I have seen 10 sold for under 500 bucks/head live bred not A.I.'d You would probably still need more than ten to have any lasting effect but hey in a couple of years there could be a few real good bucks out there. Then again those are pen raised doe and probably won't survive long in the wild. They walk perimeter fences looking for water trophs instead of finding real water sources. Not to mention that if there genetics are northern chances of surviving in Texas are slim anyway.
Never used photoshop and never will. Photoshop is for liberals.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: 817cd]
#4745581
11/13/13 06:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803 |
Ya but even if bred you only get one generation that's not native, genetics rapidly revert back after that
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: 817cd]
#4745593
11/13/13 06:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. I think the idea is the doe is bred before release so the offspring would be 100% but 1 doe is not enough. You can buy some from breeders for cheap in the spring. They usually have a surplus and have to eliminate them for costs giving you negotiating power. I have seen 10 sold for under 500 bucks/head live bred not A.I.'d You would probably still need more than ten to have any lasting effect but hey in a couple of years there could be a few real good bucks out there. Then again those are pen raised doe and probably won't survive long in the wild. They walk perimeter fences looking for water trophs instead of finding real water sources. Not to mention that if there genetics are northern chances of surviving in Texas are slim anyway. The only cheap deer in the spring would be deer that I would not want to release on my land. They are cheap for a reason. Breeders can keep them another year to sell later if they want to feed them. Deer in pens are not dumb. They do not forget how to eat or know what water smells and tastes like. Pen raised deer do well in the wild if they are raised correctly and acclimated in the pens for release. Also you are [censored]-u-ming that all deer in pens are northern genetics, so I am [censored]-u-ming you know very little about the deer breeding industry since many deer breeders have native Texas genetics in their pens. Deer did not just drop down from the heavans above into breeding pens in Texas 30 yrs ago.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#4745598
11/13/13 07:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494
817cd
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494 |
Ya I'm with you. I was just trying to get back to the original question. Like everyone pretty much said it would take a lot more than one doe or even 10.
Never used photoshop and never will. Photoshop is for liberals.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#4745601
11/13/13 07:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,416 |
On the other hand, what is going on with the other 9100 acres?
Your assumassuming they will stay on 300acres, and your assuming the will survive long enought to fawn.
Exactly my question
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: stxranchman]
#4745613
11/13/13 07:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,641
redchevy
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,641 |
Personally the only genetics I want on my place are the ones mother nature put there. If I was in your coop I may just shoot shovel and shut up about your ear tagged doe.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: redchevy]
#4745655
11/13/13 07:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,156
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,156 |
Personally the only genetics I want on my place are the ones mother nature put there. If I was in your coop I may just shoot shovel and shut up about your ear tagged doe. Considering that 90% of the states deer population originated from somewhere else, it's a moot point in most places. TTT deer are a great way to bring in native genetics to supplement a existing herd
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: stxranchman]
#4745657
11/13/13 07:21 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494
817cd
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. I think the idea is the doe is bred before release so the offspring would be 100% but 1 doe is not enough. You can buy some from breeders for cheap in the spring. They usually have a surplus and have to eliminate them for costs giving you negotiating power. I have seen 10 sold for under 500 bucks/head live bred not A.I.'d You would probably still need more than ten to have any lasting effect but hey in a couple of years there could be a few real good bucks out there. Then again those are pen raised doe and probably won't survive long in the wild. They walk perimeter fences looking for water trophs instead of finding real water sources. Not to mention that if there genetics are northern chances of surviving in Texas are slim anyway. The only cheap deer in the spring would be deer that I would not want to release on my land. They are cheap for a reason. Breeders can keep them another year to sell later if they want to feed them. Deer in pens are not dumb. They do not forget how to eat or know what water smells and tastes like. Pen raised deer do well in the wild if they are raised correctly and acclimated in the pens for release. Also you are [censored]-u-ming that all deer in pens are northern genetics, so I am [censored]-u-ming you know very little about the deer breeding industry since many deer breeders have native Texas genetics in their pens. Deer did not just drop down from the heavans above into breeding pens in Texas 30 yrs ago. Im not claiming to know a whole lot about it. I was just trying to help the man with his questions and if he did decide to buy deer do it cheaply. I wasn't trying to help you stock does on your land or on mine. I never said deer in pens are dumb just that they are pen raised. Like you said have to be raised properly. Not questioning your all knowing deer knowledge but Im not making assumptions like you either. Otherwise I would assume something about you from this post. I worked at deer breeding facility when I was younger and trying to be helpful with the knowledge and experience I have.(Not trying boast or impose knowledge and opinions) I am glad that I do not know more about it because the whole industry is stupid and bound to crash eventually. Thanks for the insults. I am aware deer didn't just drop from the heavens into breeding pens. If he bought them in Texas he likely wouldn't have to worry about it but I was simply trying to say avoid northern genetics for Texas. Im sure he can ask you if he has anymore questions about deer or Heaven or Texas.
Never used photoshop and never will. Photoshop is for liberals.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: 817cd]
#4745755
11/13/13 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296 |
You would be better off giving me that money and I can bet the results you see will be the same. You are wasting you time and money trying to add a deer a year into that size area. Once that doe breeds half the offsprings genetics are native. Once that offspring breeds its genetics are 3/4 native and so on. There is a reason you do not have better deer know and it is not genetics. The only way it can benefit is if you can add over enough new doe at one time so that they are 50% or more of the total herd. I think the idea is the doe is bred before release so the offspring would be 100% but 1 doe is not enough. You can buy some from breeders for cheap in the spring. They usually have a surplus and have to eliminate them for costs giving you negotiating power. I have seen 10 sold for under 500 bucks/head live bred not A.I.'d You would probably still need more than ten to have any lasting effect but hey in a couple of years there could be a few real good bucks out there. Then again those are pen raised doe and probably won't survive long in the wild. They walk perimeter fences looking for water trophs instead of finding real water sources. Not to mention that if there genetics are northern chances of surviving in Texas are slim anyway. The only cheap deer in the spring would be deer that I would not want to release on my land. They are cheap for a reason. Breeders can keep them another year to sell later if they want to feed them. Deer in pens are not dumb. They do not forget how to eat or know what water smells and tastes like. Pen raised deer do well in the wild if they are raised correctly and acclimated in the pens for release. Also you are [censored]-u-ming that all deer in pens are northern genetics, so I am [censored]-u-ming you know very little about the deer breeding industry since many deer breeders have native Texas genetics in their pens. Deer did not just drop down from the heavans above into breeding pens in Texas 30 yrs ago. Im not claiming to know a whole lot about it. I was just trying to help the man with his questions and if he did decide to buy deer do it cheaply. I wasn't trying to help you stock does on your land or on mine. I never said deer in pens are dumb just that they are pen raised. Like you said have to be raised properly. Not questioning your all knowing deer knowledge but Im not making assumptions like you either. Otherwise I would assume something about you from this post. I worked at deer breeding facility when I was younger and trying to be helpful with the knowledge and experience I have.(Not trying boast or impose knowledge and opinions) I am glad that I do not know more about it because the whole industry is stupid and bound to crash eventually. Thanks for the insults. I am aware deer didn't just drop from the heavens into breeding pens. If he bought them in Texas he likely wouldn't have to worry about it but I was simply trying to say avoid northern genetics for Texas. Im sure he can ask you if he has anymore questions about deer or Heaven or Texas. Sorry you took offense to being disagreed with on an open forum. It happens to all of us if you post enough. If I lost sleep for all the times someone disagreed with me I would not sleep for day on end sometimes. Good debate comes from rebutting posts from others. For the record I agree with you about breeder pens. I like looking at big deer and learning from them but nowdays guys have forgotten why the breeder deer pens were started in the 80's. Now I wish they would go away.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: 817cd]
#4745761
11/13/13 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 73
jashle
OP
Outdoorsman
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OP
Outdoorsman
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 73 |
Man some of you take yourselves too seriously. Sometime I wonder if you do realize that we are talking about animals that dont always perform exactly like we wish they would.
I think its a matter of weighing my options. I understand the risks but there is also a risk that the feeder fence becomes disabled and it allows pigs in to eat all of your protein. But that doesnt keep any of us from feeding protein does it?
I see my experiement as a way to improve the land that has been granted to me by God first (even if it is a small %). And a way to improve my hunting experience second.
To answer some of yalls questions. - I feel we have a pretty good chance of keeping the doe and any offspring on our property with the resources that we have provided the animals in our area. (4 protein feeders, 6 spin feeders, 4 watering holes, and plenty of cover in a 600 acre area)
- The whole co-op is on a conservative harvesting plan so there is not overkilling being done.
- I understand the deteriation of genetics through the generations but the original breeder is going to hopefully be around for more than one season and the idea is to add one (or two as some of you have stated) each year to soon enough have an over all better genetic spread over the property. (We also make it a priority to cull deer off the property with a higher frequency than to take a trophy.)
Please bear in mind this is a lifelong process to hopefully allow my 2 year old daughter the opportunity to take multiple deer bigger than anything I have ever seen.
Last edited by jashle; 11/13/13 07:59 PM.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jashle]
#4745905
11/13/13 08:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494
817cd
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 494 |
Sorry about the back and fourth. Apparently I am too forum sensitive.. Anyway I personally have thought the same thing. It would be a great experiment and way to see what you can do. The TTT program would be a good way too. Collected data could be really interesting. I just don't have the money to buy does or a place like that where the doe would not be shot.
" The land that has been granted to me by God first " One of the most insightful and truest quotes I have seen on this forum.
Never used photoshop and never will. Photoshop is for liberals.
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: 817cd]
#4746305
11/13/13 10:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 125
TexasAggie12
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 125 |
Put your money into management tactics that will last.
Easy come, easy go.
Texas Aggie Class of '12 FLY Ranch - Chilldress, Tx
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: TexasAggie12]
#4746310
11/13/13 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,817
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,817 |
It is "ideas" and "stuff" like this that is helping to put hunting out of the price range of the average person.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: jashle]
#4746313
11/13/13 10:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803 |
Man some of you take yourselves too seriously. Sometime I wonder if you do realize that we are talking about animals that dont always perform exactly like we wish they would.
I think its a matter of weighing my options. I understand the risks but there is also a risk that the feeder fence becomes disabled and it allows pigs in to eat all of your protein. But that doesnt keep any of us from feeding protein does it?
I see my experiement as a way to improve the land that has been granted to me by God first (even if it is a small %). And a way to improve my hunting experience second.
To answer some of yalls questions. - I feel we have a pretty good chance of keeping the doe and any offspring on our property with the resources that we have provided the animals in our area. (4 protein feeders, 6 spin feeders, 4 watering holes, and plenty of cover in a 600 acre area)
- The whole co-op is on a conservative harvesting plan so there is not overkilling being done.
- I understand the deteriation of genetics through the generations but the original breeder is going to hopefully be around for more than one season and the idea is to add one (or two as some of you have stated) each year to soon enough have an over all better genetic spread over the property. (We also make it a priority to cull deer off the property with a higher frequency than to take a trophy.)
Please bear in mind this is a lifelong process to hopefully allow my 2 year old daughter the opportunity to take multiple deer bigger than anything I have ever seen. Do some research on fawn dispersal.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: Stocker Does
[Re: dogcatcher]
#4746323
11/13/13 11:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,803 |
It is "ideas" and "stuff" like this that is helping to put hunting out of the price range of the average person. Disagree, nothing is going to lower hunting cost, accessability will always be yhe issue. NM is a great example, they wanted more resident tags, because they thought out of state hunters were gaing to much access and over running their public land. Over night they priced NM residents out of landowner tags and private land hunts via lowering out of state tag numbers
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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