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Feb 12th, 2024
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 Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: TF Panther]
#4147709
03/26/13 09:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953
TF Panther
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Reguardless of delivery ammounts lets go with the 1 billion total number. For the sake of simple mathmatics let's say quality HP ammo is a dollar each. Ball ammo .50 each. Quality HP is about twice as much as ball we all know.
The difference is 500,000 million bucks in savings over the life of the contract for using ball ammo for training as opposed to using HP for everything.
Can anyone justify why any agency would need to spend twice as much to train with HP while recieving Zero additional training benefit? You can't, which is why "most" agencies don't. Why would they? It's dollars and sense.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: dogcatcher]
#4147729
03/26/13 09:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953
TF Panther
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I shoot the same ammo at practice that I plan to shoot in he actual situation. If you want to practice with a sling shot, you can, doesn't mean the LEO with his life on the line should.  It is a good idea to make sure the brand of HP's you plan on carrying feeds well in your particular weapon. We all know certains guns (autos) can be finiky. You are recieving no additional training value for using HP's for everything, you are just spending twice as much. I have been a LEO.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: TF Panther]
#4148118
03/27/13 12:27 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,602
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
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Posts: 32,602 |
A lot of law enforcement train with HP. It comes from the lawyers, suing agencies for training with one, carrying another, and wounding or killing gangsta g with the HP....
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: dogcatcher]
#4148160
03/27/13 12:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 681
E-Cigrettman
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I saw 2 Humvees going east on Interstate 20 when we were coming back from the north Lowe's in Abilene. Neither had any markings, you "bad" guys in DFW better look out, they are coming to get you. Last week alone I saw at least 15 trucks headed South Through McKinney. Mostly some sort of the smaller transport style truck that I have yet to be able to positively identify. But there were also trucks loaded with Humvees.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: TF Panther]
#4148902
03/27/13 12:28 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,058
HWY_MAN
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Shoot Ball the HP through your pistol and you will not notice a group difference. Your making a valid argument when you keep it at the cost of ball compared to HP but then you throw in this comment. I'm sorry Sir but different ammo whether it be ball or HP will print and impact differently from the same pistol or rifle, design weight and velocity come into play and it's something we've all seen when shooting factory ammo or reloads.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: Borane4]
#4149338
03/27/13 03:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 899
Walt Kowalski
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Herr HeidelbergJager - The DHS might consider itself more like police and less like military when it comes to tactics. To prepare for the day when some DHS weenie shoots someone in an airport they are probably thinking about getting the bullets to stop and not penetrate and keep going. Hollow points are better for this. Ive never seen a police weapon that didnt have HPs... I'm sure they need 1.6 billion rounds for airport security. 
Get off my lawn.
“The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.”
John Hay
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: dogcatcher]
#4149348
03/27/13 03:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 899
Walt Kowalski
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A good friend of mine is an ICE agent. Even before the ammo shortage, he was given a couple of boxes of ammo each month for range use. It is exactly the same ammo he carries on duty...hollow points. This is the Hollow point problem. Yes, Law Enforcement carries Hollow Points while on duty. When you go to the range to qualify you use ball ammo. When you go through a shooting course you use ball ammo. When you go to a shooting school you use ball ammo. When you get off the range you put your duty ammo Hollow Points back in your magazines.
You burn ball ammo in practice. So why order all Hollow Point? They don't use them for training. That is what makes it a story. That proves what? That his supervisor hands out a few extra boxes of Hollow Points because they apparently have a HUGE surplus of Hollow Points. Ask you friend what they use when in a training courses. If they are using Hollow Point for training courses too, that is Waste and Abuse of tax dollars. If your life was on the line everyday, what would you want to practice with? The only reason you would ever need to run HP rounds through your pistol, is to check for function.....to make sure that they feed reliably. DHS doesn't need a whole boatload of ammo to do that. Any use of HP in a pistol beyond checking for function is a waste of money.....period.
Get off my lawn.
“The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.”
John Hay
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: JimTX]
#4149355
03/27/13 03:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 899
Walt Kowalski
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Hey guys, I am not saying the Gov is not stocking up for a future event, but I want to inject a little dose of reality into this topic.
DHS is a large organization, which has a number of law enforcement related entities under their umbrella. The Federal Law Enforcement Training Center also falls under their umbrella. They are responsible for the firearms training for a whole host of Federal law enforcement entities. It is a FACT that the Feds train with and carry hollow point ammunition, so that does help to explain large purchases of hollow point ammunition. I know, hollow point ammo is much more expensive and doesn’t make a lot of sense to me either, but that is the way it is. After all, it’s not their money they are spending……its yours.
Training with HP ammo is a waste of taxpayer dollars....and is typical of the arrogance of a government out of control and unresponsive to the American people.
Get off my lawn.
“The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.”
John Hay
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#4150275
03/27/13 09:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953
TF Panther
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Shoot Ball the HP through your pistol and you will not notice a group difference. Your making a valid argument when you keep it at the cost of ball compared to HP but then you throw in this comment. I'm sorry Sir but different ammo whether it be ball or HP will print and impact differently from the same pistol or rifle, design weight and velocity come into play and it's something we've all seen when shooting factory ammo or reloads. We are talking pistols at 5, 10, 15 yds........Unless you are going to the Olympics in handgun you will not know the difference with a combat pistol. How much print variation are you going to get at 10 yds? 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 inch Max? You would have to put it on a vice on a bench to find out......NO Added Training value. Combat pistol training is not sniper school, sorry guys.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#4150295
03/27/13 09:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 953
TF Panther
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A lot of law enforcement train with HP. It comes from the lawyers, suing agencies for training with one, carrying another, and wounding or killing gangsta g with the HP.... I know 8 agency's in Texas for a fact train with ball. If there was a legal precedent set.....they would not. It is not cost effective and their Range Masters know there is NO additional training value.
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Re: DHS won't answer why so much ammo purchased
[Re: TF Panther]
#4152419
03/28/13 07:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 899
Walt Kowalski
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Get off my lawn.
“The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.”
John Hay
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