"Red" Sheep

Normally, I don't get too bent out of shape over stuff like this....but I was looking at some recent pics on the Texas Hunt Lodge website, and found these two sheep being advertised as "Trophy Red Sheep". If they did, in fact, sell these as Red Sheep ($3,750 trophy fee)....someone should get their a$$ kicked!

I hate seeing stuff like this in the hunting industry. Both of these sheep obviously have significant amounts of Corsican blood in them.

Looks like some of Temple's bighorn corsican and mouflon to me. But what do I know?

I saw them too. Those are definitely not a real Red Sheep. They obviously have corsican blood in them. They also were selling off what appeared to be European Mouflon crosses as Red Sheep on their FB.

I've heard many negative things/reviews about THL...

truth is Thompson temples bighorn cross looks better than those and a better looking price tag.!

Why do people want to lie about what they have for sheep? These poor fellas didn't know any better obviously. I would have said a few choice words if somebody would have told me to shoot those mix breeds on a red sheep hunt.

I'm with Ya Elandslayer, Lot's of that stuff going on with Sheep, like ramslam said, lot's of Uneducated Folks out there when it comes to Sheep....BTW, I caught THL using one of My Pictures of a Group of Mouflon Rams on their Website a few years back (representing them as their own).....

That's rather audacious of them!

I think there is nothing worse than dishonesty, unfortunately the hunting scene is rife with it.

The sad thing is they sleep well knowing they fooled the client.

X2!

thats why it pays to know what the animals suppose to look like before you get there. sad that this stuff even happens in the industry.

[img]https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...amp;oe=54C1E9F8[/img]

Here are Red Sheep they are passing off....look to have significant European Mouflon blood in them.

Yep

Well if anyone wants any sheep let me know because every species I hunt.
afghan
red
armenian
mouflon
transcaspian
They all are hunted from pure bred herds. I have posted lots of their pictures on here with lots of really good animals.
Clay Pope

Here is a good reference
http://www.wildsheep.org
ovis

Clay Pope

Those still look WAAAYYY better than the ones in my original post.

The Red Sheep pictured looks like a European Mouflon to me??

Hilonsome, I agree with you on the photo... it sure looks like a European Mouflon.....and I know you about those.

Here is a red sheep that I have.

Dustin, Out of curiosity, how old is that red sheep in the picture you posted?

He is around 2.5 years old

This is what I believe Red Sheep should look like. Am I wrong? It's impossible to tell from a photo taken at about 270yrds but these sheep aren't very large animals either. They are not very tall or weigh much over 100 I'd guess. Baker

Here is another mishap by THL. They passed this off as a record Armenian Mouflon.

What it really is: Corsican hybrid with Urial?

And they passed this off as a Red Sheep.

What it really is: European Mouflon mix

And another...

What it really is: Texas Dall mix with something(Urial or Mouflon)

And another...just doesn't look right


In short, don't trust THL with sheep...

Kobus I think that the bottom one might be a cross between an Armenian Mouflon and Transcaspian Urial that manifests mostly Armenian Mouflon characteristics. That's the problem with created Red Sheep they have a tendency to throwback to one side or the other.

Those are some good looking Iranian Reds. They look like they throw more towards Armenian blood though.

This is slightly off topic but something to consider about Red Sheep and how they "are suppose to look." And it is not tied to the original post / pictures.

A Red Sheep is a naturally occurring hybrid in the wild between a Transcaspian Urial X Armenian Mouflon. So given it is a hybrid, I suspect that the offspring may favor one parent or the other resulting in some variation in how a wild Red Sheep might look.

Now what happens with this first generation Red Sheep? Does he or she say, "Hey, I'm a Red Sheep so I'm only going to stay/breed with other Red Sheep." or is that first generation Red Sheep going to end up as part of the ewes herd. I suspect it's the later. That means that the first generation Red sheep is going to mate with a higher probability with either a Transcaspian Urial or an Armenian Mouflon than another Red Sheep. So what is this second generation sheep? It's not a Transcaspian and it is not an Armenian. Is it a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid? I suspect that if you were hunting Red Sheep in their native range the guides and record book would classify it as a Red Sheep.

Now we come to Texas where ranchers are breeding Red Sheep...making their own Transcaspian Urial x Armenian Mouflon hybrids. Like in the wild I suspect that the off spring may have characteristics that favor one parent....probably the horns will either sweep back like an Armenian or flair out and curve/curl upward like a Transcaspian. And depending on what the rancher likes...that's the look he will breed for. So what is the correct look for a Red Sheep?

Now after breeding Red Sheep x Red Sheep the rancher may want to throw a Transcaspian Urial in with his Red Sheep ewes to get better body size or longer/heavier horns. What does he have now....is it still a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid?

In the wild the wild it would seem that any hybrid that is part Transcaspian and part Armenian would be a Red Sheep. But what about in Texas where ranchers manipulate the breeding? Does the definition of a Texas Red Sheep need to be defined as 50% Transcaspian Urial and 50% Armenian Mouflon.....and if the Red Sheep is breed back to say a Transcaspian Urial it's now a Red Sheep Hybrid?

Seems like there is a can of worms here if one wanted to open it.

[quote=TonyinVA]This is slightly off topic but something to consider about Red Sheep and how they "are suppose to look." And it is not tied to the original post / pictures.

A Red Sheep is a naturally occurring hybrid in the wild between a Transcaspian Urial X Armenian Mouflon. So given it is a hybrid, I suspect that the offspring may favor one parent or the other resulting in some variation in how a wild Red Sheep might look.

Now what happens with this first generation Red Sheep? Does he or she say, "Hey, I'm a Red Sheep so I'm only going to stay/breed with other Red Sheep." or is that first generation Red Sheep going to end up as part of the ewes herd. I suspect it's the later. That means that the first generation Red sheep is going to mate with a higher probability with either a Transcaspian Urial or an Armenian Mouflon than another Red Sheep. So what is this second generation sheep? It's not a Transcaspian and it is not an Armenian. Is it a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid? I suspect that if you were hunting Red Sheep in their native range the guides and record book would classify it as a Red Sheep.

Now we come to Texas where ranchers are breeding Red Sheep...making their own Transcaspian Urial x Armenian Mouflon hybrids. like in the wild I suspect that the off spring may have characteristics that favor one parent....probably the horns will either sweep back like an Armenian or flair out and curve/curl upward like a Transcaspian. And depending on what the rancher likes...that's the look he will breed for. So what is the correct look for a Red Sheep?

Now after breeding Red Sheep x Red Sheep the rancher may want to throw a Transcaspian Urial in with his Red Sheep ewes to get better body size or longer/heavier horns. What does he have now....is it still a Red Sheep or is it a Red Sheep hybrid?

In the wild the wild it would seem that any hybrid that is part Transcaspian and part Armenian would be a Red Sheep. But what about in Texas where ranchers manipulate the breeding? Does the definition of a Texas Red Sheep need to be defined as 50% Transcaspian Urial and 50% Armenian Mouflon.....and if the Red Sheep is breed back to say a Transcaspian Urial it's now a Re Sheep Hybrid?

Seems like there is a can of worms here if one wanted to open it.


What happens is: there is a small region in which TCU's and Armenians' range almost touch, in that small reqion is where the "Red Sheep" live, once a Ewe of either Species crosses that Border and breeds with a Ram from the other side, her Offspring is banished from that Range forever and sent to the "Red Sheep" Region, only Sheep from that Region are Imported into Texas with a "Red Sheep" Label (for Customs purposes only)...that's just me being silly! very Valid Point TonyinVa! but to extend on that, how do any of us know what is Pure TCU, or Pure Armenian??, I guess you have to get far far away from the area in which their ranges supposedly mix??

Hilonesome, We agree....... I just got tired of reading what a red sheep had to look like ...and if it didn't meet some specific standard it wasn't a "real" Red Sheep.

BTW, This sheep was posted on the THF a while back and listed as a Red Sheep. Horns curl up and have a "Urial look." So is it a Red Sheep or is it a "Texas Red Sheep x Transcaspian Urial hybrid."

BTW, I would shoot that ram in a heartbeat regardless of what someone wanted to say about its pedigree.

STRUMBURG ? Haha. Bad A$$ Urial Hybrid

I was told by the outfitter that the ram in the picture was 40" plus on each horn and was a Red Sheep (but had a lot of Urial in it's pedigree). If he finds another one that looks this good I told him I'd take the hunt in a nanosecond.

X2! Awesome Ram!

I remember reading something about Red Sheep on their home range where the author stated that it was better to think of Red sheep as an inter grade between Armenian Mouflon and Trans Caspian Urial. In other words the closer to Armenian Mouflon range the more Armenian characteristics they'll have ant the closer to Trans Caspian Urial range Trans Caspian characteristics. If that's true then any Armenian Mouflon cross with Trans Caspian Urial could be considered a Red Sheep as long as both characteristics are present.

nsmike, I would agree.