Before the e-collar

I mentioned this interview with Herman Smith on another thread. This is the best I could do with the scan on a very old article;

That's one tough dog....
Back in my grandfathers day he would pepper his dogs if they got out of controll.

A load of 9 1/2 shot in the butt seems like something PETA would be all for after reading that. If I new Mr. Smith was dragging my dog at a gallop he wouldn't have him long.

The old time dogs and handlers sure must have been rough and tough!

He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1971.

Yes, most folks who follow trials know that Herman & Collier Smith were amoung the most successful handlers of their time, are you just posting info or are you saying their methods are OK because of the hall of fame?

This forum is really slow and I was just trying to get an interesting conversation started. I started this thread on another forum and some people were outraged. Other people defended the Smiths.

I have never laid a hand on my dogs after the introduction of the variable e-collar. I've seen a video of the Dave Walker system, where he used the spin move. I've done that in the past, but no longer find it helpful. Some people are still not sold on the e-collar, but I think it's the best thing that ever happened to pointing dogs.

Within the past say 10 years I have seen a respected trainer pick up a dog that has moved after establishing point by the flank flap of skin and one ear. The dog howled and carried on during the carry, but never moved once carried back to her "spot".
He was, by the way, as kind,helpful, and gentle a person as you would ever want to meet. Just don't take a step after you go onto point!

What you saw and others I've seen pick a dog up by the ears are "tricks" used on animals that aren't really capable of what we call thought. Doesn't make it a pretty thing to watch nor was dusting them with 9 shot at 30 or 40 yards when they didn't heed the whistle back in the 1950's, but I was guilty of it. But compared to dragging a dog at a gallop with a pinch collar on, well it's a walk in the park. Don't get me wrong, I used alot of those "tricks" back in the day but not proud of it now. Glad most everyone has learned to use modern tools also.

I wouldn't say I was outraged, the newspaper is dated 1957. Dog training has changed considerably since that time. A good trainer can read a dog and will know how much pressure to use.
Those that can't will ruin one.

Me I'm a softy. I could never beat or drag one of my dogs.
Cash has came close to having the spin move used on him.
Luckily he decided to keep his feet planted.

That is a great article...I love the first person vernacular.

I helped a police officer instruct a hunters' safety class; this guy, being a detective, loved to shop garage sales, estate sales, and flea markets. For a thank you to me, he gave me a book written by William F. Brown entitled How To Train Hunting Dogs . It was the fifteenth printing with a copyright date of 1942. Inside the book was an FDSB Registration for an English Setter bitch that was whelped on March 6, 1956 along with the dog's five generation pedigree along with FDSB's transmittal letter that accompanied the registration.

There's also an interesting photo of the founder of the J.A.S.A. training system innovator...J.A.S.A. is short for Senor J.A. Sanchez Antuanano.

Just a little bit of trivia on a lovely Sunday morning.

They don't even make flushing whips anymore do they?

Yes sir...there are folks out there that are still making flushing whips. You can google leather flushing whips...the ones that I saw ranged in price from $12 to $20.

My preference for where we hunt is a 6' walking stick. We encounter some birds that will run under the grass canopy and won't flush unless they are provoked. Some of those areas also contain those slithery critters that many us don't want a confrontation with, and that is where the stick comes in handy.

There's a fella over in Mission that does custom furniture from mesquite...I am going to look him up and have him make me a stick from mesquite.

Just recently bought a nice one from Lion Country for around 15 bucks. No, I don't whip my dogs with it, but rather use it for its original intended purpose...whacking the brush to flush hesitant birds.

Last weekend down by Norias, I took my old pointer Tess off the dog truck to hunt close to me after the initial flush (she is almost 15 yrs old and no longer as fleet of foot as she once was), we had one bird out of the covey in the bag when Tess went on point at a thick bush. As it happens, in my haste, I had left the new whip in the truck. As I kicked and raked sticks thru the brush, Tess would not give up the point. My client looked at me and queried "What do you think?" I pointed at the old dog and said, "There is fifteen years of experience telling you there is a bird in that bush." Just about then, my partner arrived with his little english cocker. On command, the cocker disappeared into the tangle and out blasted the bird which was promptly dispatched with the 20 gauge the hunter wielded, and retrieved by the cocker.

My doubter turned to me and grinned as he said simply, "Well done!"

This forum is slow, I'll hijack ey own thread with another question. Herman Smith said,"but to keep him sweet, I killed plenty of quail for him."

Do you think it's necessary to kill birds over your pointing dogs for reward, or that finding and pointing birds is reward enough?

imo a kill every now and then is a plus

I think the more birds killed for your dog the better.... But a man has to also keep the birds in mind as well.

x2

Mine pointers aren't forced trained, but whether they retrieve or not, each likes to mouth the bird. Some bring it, some drop it immediately and go on to hunt for more. If that is important to them then yes, they need birds killed for them.

The West Method (and Dave Walker) uses the spin to focus the dogs. It works well and isn't harsh. It does help to get the dog to focus on training.

Some bird dogs can be extremely hard-headed ( when I was young I found some women to be the same ). I've known a few old trainers and they were brutal by today's comparison. However, their methods were not unlike law enforcement in the old west: very tough but very effective. In essence, they used the practices that had been proven to work, just as anyone does today.

I haven't been to a horseback trial in years, and no longer take the AF, but it's my understanding that they're running mostly broke derbies now days.

Most modern day trainers never lay a hand on their dogs. It's all done with the e-collar, along with improved breeding stock.

I'm bumping this back up for the folks on the Gun Dog forum.

imho, I always thought shooting the bird instilled more desire, depends on bird no's today

They have been running broke derbies for years. Now some of those derbies might have been a little more than 2 years old too.

I am a total rookie, but the answer to this one seems clear. The dog is hunting. That means his instinct is to kill. Nothing they do is for show to them. So I believe killing is essential to complete the hunting act. I understand that is not always possible these days and that's a shame.

With my previous dog (e-pointer), I don't think I'd been able to handle him without the e-collar, especially when woodcock hunting ... I'd use the beeper function of the collar to keep him in close, "close" being a relative term for that dog.

The dog I now have, (another EP), has never had an e-collar on him, and has never needed one ... <knocking on wood>.

Same breed but different lines; two completely different dogs.

You are absolutely right, the days of placing derbies on potential are gone, if a derby is going to win in open stakes he better be broke.

Right! What used to be derbies are what puppy stakes look like.