Where have the ducks gone discussion

So a friend from Arkansas showed me this video about LA however it has to do with all the southern states. I have my own opinions on it but wanted to see what others thought.

It has 2 parts but is very informative. As a quick rundown it is a video from a Foundation in LA in which statistics and data are compiled from a waterfowler professor. It speaks to the issue of there are more ducks due to conservation efforts however the harvest counts have declined.

What don't all think of this?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=EkE3NvSuF8E#

I live in Idaho, we still have Blue Wing Teal. I think that explains it. Lots of food and no real arctic blast.

It’s very simple: when there is weather that forces birds to migrate, they will migrate. When winters up north are mild, migration will be poor.

I’m not supporting flooded corn, but it’s not the reason migration has been poor. Louisiana has other issues, such as habitat loss, poor access to public land, etc that are impacting duck numbers and duck harvest numbers in that state. Hunting isn’t a guarantee. Because your blind used to be covered in ducks does guarantee that will always be the case, and that’s more evident in poor migration years. It might mean you have to scout more, or make your spot more inviting to ducks. Or it might mean you have to travel a little further to find the birds.

I don’t understand how flooded corn is allowed under baiting laws, but I also don’t think it’s the same as dumping 50 pounds of corn 20 yards from your blind.

This has been a really good series that I'm currently watching.

One of his points was that not just in flooded fields but where conservation efforts have been made and truck loads of corn were placed the winters ceased or dramatically slowed the initiation of migration. There was one part in which he covered examining different weather/temp/rain patterns and it didnt change the data. The decline started in 99 forward.

I agree scouting etc helps and nothing is guaranteed but when the data and evidenced numbers point in a different direction we as waterfowlers need to be aware and consider the causes and effects.

I think there is merit to alot of their arguments.
I think you could also make many more arguments of factors that may not be beneficial to duck populations

With that said, what is the answer? How much government control do you want involved?

Do you want to see spinning wing decoys and all other electric/motor powered accessories banned? Do you want to see hunting ending at noon? No hunting on Sundays? No surface drives/airboats or engines that exceed a certain decibel rating? Seasons/limits shortened?

Here's one for ya, should the government put a cap on guides/outfitters? I see alot of pile pics all over social media. It's not uncommon in other states for them to limit the number of outfitters/guides on a certain body of water or national forest.

Should waterfowl be placed on a quata and once that quata is hit all hunting is stopped? Seen mt lion seasons controlled this way. Also it is common practice in the offshore commercial fishing.

I guess one of the biggest questions is what kind of financial/economical ramifications will some of these restrictions cause, if any were to be implemented.


If there is one law change that I think evens the playing field it would have to be no artificially flooding agricultural crops. You could legally hunt over naturally flooded crops. Naturally defined as flooding from rain water. But the second you turn on a pump or open a well it would be illegal to hunt over such area.

Numbers are down?

The biggest change I want to see done is opening up all "bird refuges" for hunting. There is no reason we (tax payers) should pay for land, and not be able to access and utilize it. There is no evidence to show that bird refuges help duck populations.

The second thing I want done is whoever dropped the pintail limit from 2 to 1 get a swift kick to his back side. I see more pintails then any other species of big duck. This has been constant from the Lubbock plains all the way to the rice fields, over the past 5 years. There is no way they have had any population decrease, and I guarantee if they did their bird surveys farther south the teal and pintail numbers would be drastically different.

All good questions, especially about what amount of government regulation is appropriate. I know, out of principle, I want as little government intervention in everything as possible.

When it comes to migratory birds, it’s tough.

One thing I’ve seen brought up and I can see makes sense is about electronic spinning wing decoys and their impact on duck populations. The theory is, they do major damage to juvenile ducks, which, in turn, has a lasting impact on populations and hunting in general.

I have never had good luck hunting over mojos, and I actually would go as far to say I hate hunting over them, but again, should the government outlaw even more of the tools hunters use? But then, I’ve also heard up north where field hunting is more prevalent, that mojos are dynamite, especially on younger birds.

It’s a tough situation in general, with a lot of moving parts.

100% agree on the pintail issue. I’ve seen more this year than ever.

I understand their point, but I don’t think it’s correct. This group has been around for a while now. They’ve been stirring it up since this summer, threatening law suits. They have a FaceBook page, and their behavior was shameful.

I’ve been following some of this off-and-on on another duck hunting forum and there is plenty of data to contradict what they’re claiming about flooded corn. Add in the way they’re packaging their message, and I’m just not going to jump on board.

I think weather is the biggest issue and always will be. I think flyways may sometimes shift for a host of reasons, none of them being man-made reasons.

I'm not sure whats going on but something is. Might be the weather. Might be the flooding in the northern states. Could be the flooded corn. What I do know is that in 2012 we killed almost 800 ducks on our place in near Midfield. This year less than 50. Food looks great. I have 20 acres of millet that has only had birds in it one day. Its crazy.

People like to tell about flooded corn (as do I) but good flooded native grasses, moist soup units etc etc etc will all have the same results. I do not think flooded corn Should be legal. But I also don't think that making it illegal will dramatically change the patterns we are seeing. Simply because the corn will be replaced with other legal vegetations. I also hate big government. Outlawing flooded corn brings up a slippery slope. If Corn floods naturally?


Basically the market for duck guides/ outfitters etc etc etc is ever growing. As that continues to grow it will continue to get worse. 30 years ago ducks were where you find them. Today build it and they will come.

Flooded corn isn't the 'end all be all' some people make it out to be. Habitat Flats has taken a lot of abuse and, in some cases, singled out as the sole reason ducks don't migrate south. After listening to some podcasts with the owners of HF, they do have flooded corn, but it is in much smaller tract than their moist soil units.

Weather is a factor. Not just cold, but also rainfall and where it is falling. There is a lot of water from Kansas north. That spread the birds out. Last year, there was high amount of water everywhere in the Central and MS flyways that spread the birds out.

I have been on a band wagon of the Population Numbers are NOT accurate...there may still be some truth in that, but I am starting to see a different pattern. PRESSURE.

Pressure on the duck population is at an all time high. Read some of the aerial survey data from Forbes Biological Station, AGFC, and LWDP...some of them come right out and say it, and others you have to read between the lines....but where there is heavy pressure the birds have left or gone nocturnal.

I am seeing birds scatter out more and finding them outside of their traditional haunts. This is in an area I have been hunting for the last 20yrs, pretty broad are. Talking with some of my friends who hunt OK, the panhandle, central TX....we are all seeing the same things. Birds are not in their normal spots (in general, not saying you can't find them where they should be) and/or have gone nocturnal.

That holds true except when there is inclement weather that forces them to feed during the day because they are having to keep water open overnight.


I believe there are several factors, but hunting pressure being one of the biggest....

I would be all for shorter seasons and reduced limits to take some pressure off the birds. I have been hunting for 30+ years and been through shortened seasons, liberal seasons, etc...we are in a period of the longest liberal seasons/bag limits me or my family has seen. I believe a few years of shorter seasons with more/longer splits would drastically improve hunting quality.

This. Take us back to the points system. Give is a 20 day split.

In 3 years the boat ramps will be empty and we get to hunt again.

The thinking of using the courts to stop somebody from flooding their cornfields is about as much of a bitch move as as I have ever heard.

I agree with you on flooded corn. I don’t think it should be legal, but I also don’t think it’s the end-all, be-all, like RR said.

Moist soil units, from my understanding, are better. No way to legislate that.

Well said. 100% agree.

Bout like using the courts to keep a poor boy from chunking some corn on his pond?

Interesting. I would really like to know how year to year hunting pressure changes duck migration patterns, but even if there if it does affect flyways and patterns, haven't we been hearing about how numbers of duck hunters have generally declined for the last 30 years or so? The LA presentation definitely indicates less hunters how than in the 80s, but I haven't found that data for Texas. So I could be wrong.

Habitat changes are significant, and we know crop selection has changed drastically in Texas.

Average temp has gone up by a few degrees in states north of us (the link below is for Kansas), but I'm not sure how big arctic blasts that freeze up a whole region have changed.

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cag/state...&filter=true&filterType=binomial

Why is that a bitch move? Does it just not need to be done?

And that's the problem, no matter what is decided or done will be fought in the courts. To much money in spinning wing decoys for then to go silently away if they were banned. To much money in high end hunt clubs and outfitting if they made it illegal to hunt man made flooded crops.

I dont think flooded crops is the whole cause for poor seasons in the south, nor spinning wing decoys, nor the lack of cold weather. I think there is a whole slew of factors that affect duck migration.

Overall I think we have been our own worst enemies and as hunters have significantly contributed to the problem.

I also have never believed the yearly number/bird counts. But again what is the solution.

In comparison texas has a very volatile quail population. Some years are good some are bad, over all the birds have been on a decline for decades. But tx doesn't change the bag limit or length of season yearly to reflect the population strength.

So us duck hunters aren't the only ones wondering where the birds went.

I'm telling y'all to watch that series I posted the video on, it answers every single thing with science y'all are trying to discuss.

Btw, whoever said to open up refuges for hunting, please tell me you're not serious, that's about a retarded statement.

I'm for opening up refuges on a controlled hunt basis. Im in dfw so hagerman is close, they do controlled deer hunts on a draw basis. Odds are steep but I'd like to see some draw hunts to let a handful of hunters in there to hunt on a few select days.

This. Let a couple people in on a controlled drawn situation. Go look at a refuge in Arkansas. Those birds imprint the locations. If there is food on the refuge they have no reason to leave. Make them a bit less comfortable. Don't pressure them out but a Wednesday with a couple guns on a refuge ain't gonna push them out of the country.

I’ve seen some of those videos and I lean towards those being way more accurate and relevant than what the FF has been squawking about.

Nobody has mentioned why it is legal to hunt over flooded corn but illegal to hunt over dumped corn. The reason is agriculture is way more important than ducks on our straps. It is one of, if not the most important production we have. Comparing that production to the ducks we kill is a minuscule comparison to say the least. We care about what we get to kill. The rest of the world cares about what is grown.

Now think of the legal nightmare it would create if all of a sudden farmers and ranchers are allowed to lease flooded agriculture lands. Where is the line drawn? When does a field of corn that's been harvested become legal? We all know there is quite a bit left in the field after harvest. Rice fields? Same thing as corn. You going to outlaw hunting rice fields? Outlaw milo for doves? Where does it stop? Second off, leave the ranchers and farmers alone. They got enough crap to worry about just trying to stay afloat. Why add another law to hamper their ability to make a little something extra. Ask for what you want and you just might get it. To stop hunting on farmlands would put a serious bender on a lot of hunting.

I could present a dozen scenarios but don't think I need to.

I didnt realize so many democrats hunted ducks, government involvement is never the answer kids

Yeah, because market hunting was really good for the ducks right. Can't believe the government shut that down.

Are you saying there should not be a government? To say government has its place does not mean you are a democrat. Or to even say there should be more regulation does not mean you are a democrat. To say there should be no government means you are pure capitalist, and no one in their right mind thinks that. Regulations or laws that transfer wealth from rich to poor is a democrat thing. Don't confuse the 2.

I don't know the answer, and I probably don't know the regulations that well either, but here is my take and my interpretation of all this..

Hunting flooded crop is ok as long as it follows "normal agricultural practice". The "spirit" of law makes sense to me, what it says is farmers can make money selling hunts if his crop gets flooded, and probably ruined if flooded. To say you cannot hunted flooded crop period, would deprive farmers from making money if their crop gets flooded. That is the spirit of this reg, to put money in the farmers hand in the event their crop gets flooded, they have a hard enough time as it is.

But when you plant a crop for the sole purpose of hunting it with no intention to harvest it but you follow "normal agricultural practice" to circumvent the spirit if the regulation, that is just stupid, why even have the reg, what is the point, it is no different than just dumping bait on the ground, it is more efficient to just put out a feeder and more economical . I personally would like to see a better regulation because what is in place now makes no sense.

This reg should be replaced with regs that make sense for building natural duck habitat.

Yes everyone knows for centuries farmers have levied off fields planted it with corn not harvested it and flooded it. . I think age is catching up with some. To draw a line between agriculture importance and flooding corn for ducks is as weak wristed as I've seen.

Oh I'm 1000% serious. There is no reason tax dollars should go to land that can not be accessed and utilized by the public. There's already been movements in other states that are starting to open up refuge's to hunting.

What's truly retarded is your hunting ability. It's extremely obvious you've learned everything on youtube and ain't touched a limit of ducks in your life. Get at me when you can post a picture of a half decent hunt. I'll wait.

Since I don't post pictures I don't kill ducks, noted.
I don't hunt for limits anyways, I hunt for fun. I hunt because I like watching ducks work, and trying to fool them. Sure a limits nice, but I don't care about having one every time I go out.

And there is a reason, it's called hunting pressure, and ducks need a safe place to rest
What happens when you go into a deer's bedroom, they leave. Same thing with ducks since most refuges are roosts.
So go ahead, spread the ducks out to kingdom come and they won't decoy because you think it's okay to hunt refuges. Stupid thing to even consider

You misspelled anarchist.

As far as the migration change goes, like most things it isn't due to singular reason. I do think that flooded crops and heated ponds up north are one of the smallest factors and weather is the biggest.

All I know is that folks should quit bitching and be willing to adjust. It's what most of us do to some extent every season. Figure it out and move on.

Right

Then you tell me. How would you regulate the difference between flooding and normal ag procedures across the entire United States? Rice crops are flooded all the time. Once cut, they often have 2 and even up to 3 cuts. How would you suggest regulating that? Corn doesnt always get harvested. Sometime they can't harvest it. So you're a fed and you say I planted the corn strictly for hunting. I say I planted it to harvest but some natural event stopped me. Who will lose? The farmer.

You can't regulate it because it would be impossible. But while your at it, let's outlaw feeding deer. Let's outlaw planting winter oats for a deer food plot. You fellas against food plots can cry all you want. When the numbers generated by farmers nationwide are compared to what ducks produce, they won't/can't even consider outlawing flooded food crops. I am on the farmers side!

market hunting would have died shortly after it was outlawed due to the invention of boxed meat

I'll let you in on a little secret KWood, you can shoot limits, decoy ducks and have fun all at once. You should try it sometime.

Now THAT is capitalism.

Old hand. I'm pretty sure if you look back through my original response I said it's a slippery slope I said that outlawing flooded corn is not going to change anything because of moist soil units you can add rice into that it's not going to change the outcome but acting like outlawing flooded corn is going to affect a farmer's bottom Dollar is likely the dumbest thing anyone will write on this forum all day and that's including the off-topic area.

My nose started bleeding from reading this....

Lay off the booger sugar it will do that to you

Isn't it already against the law to flood corn? That is not normal farming practice. Flooding rice is, but not corn.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant. I am sure you missed my point. I was not speaking of corn specifically reducing the pocketbook of a farmer. I'll try another way. I've hunted the katy prairie since I was a child. Every inch of it was rice. If somehow hunting flooded crops was outlawed, then yes it would have a massive impact on farmers across the nation. I know of one small 40 miles from downtown Houston that is leased for 20,000 a year. I am not rich nor am I poor, but I don't care who you are, losing 20,000 would be a big deal.
You and I both know to hunt ducks you have to change with the times. Where I used to hunt the Katy prairie is all covered in Cinco Ranch and the likes. Did I cry and try to take the builder to court like these " they won't let my ducks fly south anymore" people. I am still killing ducks. Less now than before but that's only because they switched from a 10 bird limit to now 6.

No

What, no way?!

Btw, thanks for looking me up so you could try and shame me. I hope it was a waste of your time

tdogg, take it easy on the dude, he's from Florence, he cant help it

I feel bad now. I'll send him a box of crayons to munch on, and a bottle of windex so his momma can clean that window he loves to lick so much.

I guess that make sense, like millet first year, you can flood it but not manipulate it.

Awww, you're a sweetheart, thanks!

Wow...This is the most action a thread on this forum has gotten in the last 5 years

Might have to get the catfish special at D-Boone’s Friday

Actually, here was a thread on Flyway Federation less than a year a go, that went 4 pages, this one will probably go further cuz tdogg is on here.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7430650/1

Bottom line- if you have habitat- shallow water and food source, you have birds. They will find it. Migration, no migration. They will concentrate were food is. Pressure is the largest deterrent IMO. We haven't had a real cold front since first week of season but have consistently shot limits, or worst case, 1/2 limits on stale birds. Have to get creative. Traditional hunting, decoy setup, etc doesn’t work as well. Have to be different.

Great season so far for puddle ducks. Hopefully continues.

damn duck season isn't even over yet and y'all already back to clucking - I can't wait to see what the off season looks like

The birds that do make it down here find the tanks no one is hunting and stay there.

I hate that up north they can now flood corn and hunt in it.

And ice eaters are from the devil!

This was a good series and I enjoyed listening to it. I was able to get through pretty much all of them.

The one thing I came away from all of it is you can point your finger and play the blame game on all sorts of factors; spinning wing decoys, flooded food plots, hunting pressure, etc. But all and all we are in this together and I think the only thing we can do as individuals to help the duck population is to limit our hen harvest. I'm proud to say I've only shot 3 mallard hens so far this year, but I feel I've shot to many hens of other species. I'll run my numbers after the season. I'd say 1/4 to 1/3 of my bag has been other hens (ringnecks, teal, spoonies, gadwall, etc.) I feel this is to high and I need to do a better job on not harvesting hens. Just my thoughts and I'd ask each hunter to make a concerted effort to do the same.

So...now that that has seemed to settle down, who's up for some lake naming! I'm sure we can break 10 pages if we try.

I have 100 acres of prime moist soil habitat. 15 acres of japanese millet. There have been birds on my property for one day this season. Zero pressure in the second split. Zero birds this morning when I scouted. Its mind bottling...

Buddy of mine guided this hunt last weekend in central-ish Texas


I think they all went there..


quick image upload

I have not heard a single shot in December and January out of Lake VineGrape

Yep, I follow some of the elite ducks clubs on social media in arkansas and they have ducks but are reporting very low nunbers.

Well, it was 72 degrees yesterday, what do you expect.

We need something to liven this place up.

We still got two weeks though! Y'all can lake name, just not wma name!

Well, I'll stick a finger in the fan:

So I hear there are tons of ducks at the following:

Cheyenne Bottoms WMA
Neosho WMA

Anybody hunted there lately? I'm not looking for your general spots. I want the supreme honey holes!

Lake Granger sucks and needs groceries - https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7706122/all/lake-granger

We should be allowed to have duck feeders filled with corn.

From my experience this season, it is weather related.

We had a couple good strong fronts early this year and I had a better first split than I ever have before.

Then the pattern shifted to stagnant with little bitty mild "Cool Fronts" that did little to get birds moving. I think the birds that arrived on those early fronts, left on some of the others and hardly any new birds have followed them. The weather has been so muggy and not very "Ducky".

I'm not saying there aren't any ducks around but the ones that are here get smart about where to stay where they can't get pressured.

I've seen more birds during the second split sitting on cooling ponds and retention ponds around chemical plants and cities than I have out in the hunting marsh.

They aren't stupid and they learn the safe havens quick.

Just my

I do tend to agree on this generally. I personally think shooting less hens is important. More hens = more broods in theory...

I'd like to see a cap on the amount of hens you can shoot within your daily bag limit. 2 or 3 hens (of all species) max out of your six bird bag.

There have been a couple studies that show hen killers have a lot less impact on duck numbers than you would think. Main reason is that hunting is a relatively low factor in mortality. It’s all about the habitat in the breeding grounds in the spring.

I think I have seen those same studies. I would say I agree with them however there is a limit of 2 mallard hens per bag limit. So there must be something about limiting the harvest of hens.

If you listen the spinning wing decoy discussions of the xo state of waterfowling they indicate studies that show young hens being particularly vulnerable to spinning wing decoys. I dont believe spinning wing decoys are going anywhere, to much money.... so the only thing I think we can do as conservationist hunters is to further limit our harvest of hens. Just my opinion.

Ultimately I am not in favor of the government telling me what I can and cant do, but if hunters aren't going to protect the resource themselves then what option do we have. Just bc you can doesn't mean you should.

If you are familiar with trout fishing along the texas coast then you know how the state wouldnt lower the limit on trout even though all the guides/outfitters knew the trout population wasnt strong enough to continue to support the 10 trout limit the state had. Bc of increased fishing pressure. So most of the guides and outfitters banned together and restricted customers to only keeping 5 trout per day. Now the state has changed its position and made the limit 5 across the TX coast. Buts that's a different topic.

Imo a compromise on spinning wing decoys would only be to use them first split only, second split only, something along those lines. Would it be a popular proposition? Doubtful.

Duck numbers, with the exception of pintail everywhere and mallards in the Atlantic flyway, are increasing. So the question really isn't conservation as much as migration patterns. With the floods in Kansas and Oklahoma this year, I thought we would have more birds than we did. But my observations are they are just now showing up in North Texas. We really don't have much to keep them here in numbers compared to the coast. And they don't have a lot of reasons to leave SD and Nebraska if the snow line doesn't force them to. I Support DU and Delta but, with the exception of Richland Creek, it seems all the Dev$ go up north or to the coast. There's logic in that, still, there doesn't appear to be any appreciable habitat development in our area. There's a lot of us in the metromess. We should make our voices heard when habitat $ are being spread around.