Guiding on Public land

How does everyone feel about Guided waterfowl hunts on public water? is there a market for it? I guide on private waters but I thought about charging $150 a person and do some Public hunting. I have the boat and the whole nine yards

I'd bet good money there is a market for it, especially for people new to the sport trying to learn. Just be prepared to have some of those people trying to use your spots.

o yeah that's just part of it for sure.

Guiding on public in of itself is fine. But sometimes guides get personal as if they deserve a place more than public Joe sense they are trying to make a living and satisfy clients. I've seriously duck hunted now for 4 years and from what I've seen out there I'd hate to try to make a run of it on public land. A well known duck guide who sometimes post here now hunts far west tx and Ok private. He was well known to some lakes to our east. I don't think there's any reason not to think that move was because duck dynasty guys and lots of mud boats out there now....they can get to where once did.

If you do it I's stick to one on one guide service....its a helluva lot easier to take 1 limit on public than 3 or more!

Unless you are teaching a 'newbie' I don't think it would be worth it for you. If I was going to pay for a guided hunt myself I don't want to fight public crowds and would rather hunt on private water.

The only area where I think it would be worth it is down on the coast where there is a lot of real estate.

i guide some private hunts on private land, and personally I would not mess with it. As a guide, I try to put hunters on the best absolute experience possible. This day and time that would not be possible the majority of the time on tx public waters. It would not sit well with me personally to be accepting money from hunters for a hunt, and have other hunters that are close enough(within 700 yds minimal) to flare ducks we are working with their shots. Not to mention that the overall number of wintering ducks on texas lakes in not very good. Yeah I know everyone will say that it part of public hunting, but I would not do it. I was kind of hoping that more states would follow Kansas's lead and ban guiding for monetary gain on public lands/water.

Your first two sentences make a great point.

That is an outrageous overstep of states' rights and I can't believe a fellow hunter and amateur guide would advocate for that.

I don’t think he is out of bounds for saying that. I like that model. The phrase “for monetary gain” being the key for me.

How is that any different than fishing guides using public water for monetary gains? Getting real close to ruining a lot of livelihoods.

Well for one, when you fish, you aren’t using guns. I’m just one person but I see that as a pretty big difference.

In my humble opinion, comparing a fishing guide to a hunting guide is like comparing apples to oranges. It is two different things.

I know if you ask TPWD about guiding on public "land" they will tell you it's illegal. Never asked about the legal definition of "public land" or if it includes water surface within public land. Ask and see what they say. Then deep within different water body controlling authority rules some if not all are going to have rules related to commercial activities. I imagine public guiding violates a rule or law of some sort on many lakes already. IMHO it is just a nest of bees no one dares stir up.

There ain't much public land in Texas. What we call public is corps, a water district, type 2. There are guides that run out of about any "public" water in Texas. To claim it's illegal would be a stretch. If it is illegal the game wardens sure don't know it.

As to the op. I can't even enjoy hunting much public in Texas without the stress of meeting the expectations of clients.

how is not allowing guiding on public waters in texas an overstep of states rights? The state doesn't even own and or control the majority of the lakes anyway. IMO some of the lakes should be open to hunting to provide some a place to go hunt and enjoy. But having a "monetary gain" off of something that you did not build, pay for, maintain, etc? Tell me what and how anything benefits from having duck guides running around on public waters?

IBTL.

This is exactly how I feel. Very well put.

So if the state does not own, control them wouldn't it be bit of a step for it to be a state law against it?

How does this differ from Uber/Lyft drivers using public roads for monetary gain?

State owns the game like deer and turkey. Until they migrate out of here

This thread is concerning....do I hunt hunt public? I've bragged for 4 years about being a macho public hunter!

They pay for the ability to do so via registration of said vehicle.

And before you go there, a hunting license isn’t the same as vehicle registration.

First requirement; guides should be able to prove a schedule C, EIN or tax ID.

If you want to get technical, then that’s would be federal controlled waters....

I personally think every public water guide in Texas should have to have an upto date six pack at the very least.

If you aren’t a legal captain shouldn’t be able to “guide”

-----Original Message-----
> From: TPWD@prodweb2.tpwd.state.tx.us
> [mailto:TPWD@prodweb2.tpwd.state.tx.us]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 8:41 PM
> To:
> Subject: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - Hunting on Public Lands in Texas
>
>
> *** E-mail reply requested!
>
> Comment or Question:
>
> Is it legal for professional hunting guides to charge money to
> take people hunting on public land like the LBJ grasslands here
> in Texas? also what kind of insurance do these guides need to
> have in case of an accident? Also is there some kind of permit
> these guides need to have in order to do business in Texas?


> From: hunt <hunt@tpwd.state.tx.us>
> Date: February 24, 2011 7:40:17 AM CST
> To:
> Subject: RE: Web Site - E-MAIL REPLY REQUESTED - Hunting
>
> They are unable to do so since they would not be able to that
>since a Hunting Lease license is required of a landowner or
>landowner's agent who leases hunting rights to another person
>on property they own or control for pay or other consideration.
>The license must be displayed on the property.
> The guide is not the landowner or landowner's agent
>since they do not own the property nor lease it since it is
>open to all the public to utilize. They also would not be able
>to acquire a Hunting Lease license due to the open statement.
>
>
>

Ah well guess they can just charge $200 for gas money to their guests instead.

Grasslands the very small % of actual public property in Texas.

This is migratory forum. State does not own any waterfowl or migratory game bird.

I'm all for it, and don't have an issue with guided hunts on public land, it always goes Down to what the wardens will "allow" you as an citizen to charge, in Louisiana you can't even charge for your actual costs!
Texas I'm not sure I got mixed answers when I called last season, personally its not worth the trouble dealing with the state people, but then, that's what they want.
Most of my hunts are private, when I'm public, its just a hunting trip with friends, does 150.00 cover your gas, equipment, shells, license, time on the road, dogs, food, water, mechanical issues, mother nature?
DC

Ducknbass. That was a question another forum member had asked. I asked also as a general question related to all public land and got the same answer. There is no doubt guiding hunting on public property in Texas is illegal. The question related to how tpwd defines it would be is a water body within public land also considered part of the property? If not then a private water guide operation should not be required to have a hunting lease license as well.

Then people open advertise criminal activity on this forum and throughout the internet.

I don't see it.

Nevermind the coast....

Why I called it a nest of bees no one dares touch. I agree with you, but we can't always apply logic or common sense to hunting regulations.

2 pages in and the word Pimp has not been used

All things State.

There are lots of unenforced rules. Things like birds in freezer part of possession limit. Latest crow depredation/hunting rules. Rabies document carried with your dog on public hunting lands and crossing state lines. Local like one lake requiring your dog to wear orange even while duck hunting. Sometimes it is best not to ask and bring attention to something, nor would I if my living was related to guided duck hunting on public property in Texas. Leave it grey.

So TPWD warden cannot legally write someone a ticket while waterfowl hunting if the "crime" relates directly to the birds? All else being legal?

The State owns them when within the state boundary. The State being the people of the state.

SUBCHAPTER B. PROPERTY OF THE STATE
Sec. 1.011. PROPERTY OF THE STATE. (a) All wild animals, fur-
bearing animals, wild birds, and wild fowl inside the borders of this
state are the property of the people of this state.

I was not aware if that. I thought they just enforced.

I guided exclusively on a public lake for 5/6 years with great success. Never had a single issue with a client who would show blatant disrespect and hunt where I took them as they knew that's how I made part of my living ever year. I ran 2/4 clinets per day and limited out on puddle ducks 4/6 hunts

I also have been a bass guide on a lake for 13 years and very seldom have it happen then either

As far as guiding on public and guys wanting the state to outlaw it, compleatly ignorant. Now with tha being said the state would require a hunting guide license as it would weed out the bad apples

You almost have the liberal millennial thing down. Instead of calling anybody with a different opinion than you ignorant, try calling them racist.

Last I checked Ignorant had a broad range of actual meanings and I also never called anyone in particular ignorant. Also most mellinals have poor work ethicsa and feel as if everything should be given to them and they deserve an award for participation. I sir do not have that intitlemnt ans work my butt off everyday

This ignorant Generation Xer requests an explanation to your reply to Cody. I am lost on that one.

You’d just have to up with the times of social media and liberals. The thing to do these days if you’re a liberal is call anyone with a different opinion racist. It was a joke.

Now stop taking yourselves so seriously.

^ I'm lost now lol minus the racist thing I'm leaving that Ali e

Cody,
I don't have an opinion on it personally, but I am curious. What "knowledge, information, or awareness" are people lacking related to guides on public? I know when Kansas outlawed it there was a lot of in depth discussion with that State on the pros and cons from both sides before they made the change.

Compare apples to apples like these examples
Guiding fishing on PUBLIC lakes = momentary profit while bringing clients to the area to spend money in the area they would never come to unless they booked with the guide generating money for the state with licenses, hotel taxes, and the local economy

Uber/lift drivers using public roads = monitory profit while commuting ppl to and from the above mentioned

Do waterfowl guides pay taxes on the income they generate from their services? Most, all...none?

I don't think hunting guide fees are subject to sales or use tax

I good reputable and savvy guide pays taxes on all income. It's all I do between fishing, deer and goose hunting and I pay taxes every year, if begggg for a return. We pay self employment taxes as well. May not answer our question bc I'm a guide bot a tax person that's why I pay my CPA lol

don't waste any of your time trying to make sense of the majority of the things our government from top to bottom does these days

From Texas Water Code

Sec. 11.0235. POLICY REGARDING WATERS OF THE STATE. (a) The waters of the state are held in trust for the public, and the right to use state water may be appropriated only as expressly authorized by law

Not apples to apples.

Yeah I should have been more specific. Stands to reason a professional full time guide like yourself reports income.

A) That area is federal land.
B) As if that area isn’t crowded enough...lake namer (even if it’s another forum member’s email, you posted it. )

The answer was written addressing all public land "public land like...". As said earlier I also asked TPWD as well in reference to all public land and got a near identical answer, but it was a very long time ago. Feel free to email them yourself with the question. I am fairly sure you will get the same answer. While your at it, ask them about how it does or does not apply to public water and post the answer for us please. And yes it is no secret, Everyone knows I hunt Lake Ray Roberts. More mallards than any lake in the States. Any guides not operating there are really missing out.

My only public land guide encounter story.

I was in the parking area off a public land access point on Ray Bob. I had two friends that met me there. We were packed up with decoys and gear about to hit the trail when a truck slides into the parking area. A guy gets out, intercepts us and says "y'all better not be headed to my spot, I have two clients coming". I had never met or seen this guy before. I told him "I would have no idea if I was headed to your spot or not". Turned out he had had a run in with some other hunters the day before over a hunting spot with the game warden called by one of the parties to diffuse the situation. I chose to handle the situation different than the previous hunters. I knew the area well and we were the only two groups so I told him something like "only you know where you are hunting, your the guide, you tell me where to hunt". I agreed with his recommendation. All went well, both parties limiting out. We walked up to visit with him and his clients after the hunt. I used the opportunity to pick his brain. I figured out he was hunting on a submerged road bed/well pad that ducks lounge over late morning. Easy to find because of the remains of a platform he had built when the water was higher. I still have that spot in my portfolio of hunting spots and have hunted it more than a few times. As well as an area on another lake he inadvertently gave up to us that season.

This thread is starting to really take shape. Someone pass the salt.

As an individual, I can handle finding that my first choice spot, and maybe my second and third, are taken. I don't like that, but I can live with it. A guide literally can't afford to have that happen. He can't afford to have someone get to the spot first, in which case his clients will chew his head off. It makes for too much pressure. It leads the guides in high pressure places to get nasty to reserve their spot.
The experts on this forum always tell us the same thing: Ya gotta be on the "X." Most of the lake is worthless. There are only a few spots that are really good. But what if I get to the X and find a guide has put up a fancy blind on it? Yes, they do it. They will say it is to make their clients comfortable. Really, it is because they are like lawless and arrogant squatters, taking over PUBLIC land and claiming it as their own. Sometimes guides on the places I hunt throw out decoys the night before to claim their spot. Sometimes they send out some lowly employee to sit in "their" blind at 2 a.m. This last is maybe the least egregious, but it makes it harder and harder for the average guy to find a place to hunt.
Cody Malone, you must hunt remote places. If you hunt places where there really isn't any pressure, and you are respectful of those who get there before you, I guess I don't see anything wrong with that, but that is not the norm.
Sniper John, you handled your situation admirably. I never get in arguments while out hunting, and I would like to say I would have handled that similarly. But a person in the situation you describe could have rightfully said something like this: Look, it is public land, and I am here at the launch first. First come, first serve. If you have a fast boat and get to your spot first, I won't hunt within 200 yards of you. But if I get to my spot first, you will have no right to tell me to leave. The fact that you make your living hunting doesn't give you any more right to a spot. First come, first serve.
Somebody is going to reply to this by saying that they know every guide in Texas and every one of them is a former choir boy who helps old ladies across the street. I am here to tell you they are not all like that. The pressure on public land it getting crazy. The guides who hunt public are not nice or even respectful of other hunters. They can't afford to be.

Sniper I sure ain't calling you a liar. It's clear you asked the question to the state. But it's hard for me to believe it. It would be like someone telling me that wearing leather work boots is a felony. I would have a real hard time believing them.

Whomever answered the question may or may not have even known.

As to whether it should be legal or not.. I'm torn I've never had a run in with one I do not believe. The reality is lakes are crowded they would be crowded with or without them. Anyone can be a jerk guide or not.

You know its getting bad when public walk -in-hunters get mad at public-boat-in hunters cause as I was told one morning last season..."you have the whole lake to hunt with that boat, why are you hunting this spot?"

I simply replied I hunt where I have seen ducks no matter where its at on a lake. They went about their way and gave us good distance between us.

Any income generated from a business is taxed. Whether the part time guide report it the income and pay taxes on it is another matter.

Let's ask. This sound good?

Is it legal for professional hunting guides to charge money to
take people hunting on public land in Texas. If not allowed, what regulation or regulations apply? Any exception between guiding on public State vs federal land? Any exception for public waterbodys? For example professional waterfowl guides operating on public lakes in Texas. And last any exception for public hunting guides operating on waterbodys located within public properties?

Done. I directed the question to TPWD law enforcement requesting a reply. We will see if they are still giving the same answer and this time how they do or don't apply it to public water. I will post the reply when I get one.

John, I was making a joke. I was definitely not saying that answer was wrong or disputing it. I’m sorry for not being more clear I was kidding.

John

If you were to ask the state of leather work boots were illegal to wear and whomever replied said yes. I wouldn't believe it. Not a whole lot anyone could do to make me believe it was illegal. Short of mass enforcement.

It's ok. I understood that. When it had been brought up by someone the first time it was related to a forum member guiding turkeys on public "land". Just for trivia it will be interesting to see how they spin it related to "water" if they give the same answer as before. Nice to see a charged thread in here. Been boring since season closed.

That it has. A little off season fun.

As to the topic, I’ve never thought about it until this thread. I’ve also never hunted or fished with a guide, except on a charter fishing boat in salt water.

Part of me doesn’t care, because presumably, the guides are paying taxes on their income, and also because I’m a walk in hunter and usually only hunt a few places. Public hunting is first-come, first-serve, and that’s part of the game.

On the other hand, guides drive up the prices of leases, lakes are already crowded, etc, etc.

Interesting topic and I can see both sides.

Interesting. I don’t understand this. This would be my only reason to higher a guide on public land, is to understand the land vs scouting. I mean if I just want to shoot ducks, go private.

Same

I wouldn’t hunt with guide on public if was free, if the expectation is that where we hunted was then off limits for me. Forget that.

Generally hunting guide fees are not subject to sales taxes.

This was an answer given several years ago

"The all inclusive fee per hunter per day, is not taxable as an amusement.
However, the amount of the fee that is allocated to guest lodging is
taxable under the Hotel tax statute; the amount of the fee that is
allocated to meals is taxable; hunting and fishing guide fees are not
taxable; sales tax is not due on hunting fees"

No answer/reply on our public guide question yet. May have thrown them for a loop on the canned answer when I included public water in the question.

This is a thought provoking thread. The only rub for me is guides moving into public areas that I have hunted for over 40 years. Then trying to claim it as there own, and attempt to run everybody else out of the area. Then try to play the "this is how I make my living" card like it gives them the right to push hunters around who have hunted the area for decades. Then try to hunt the area every day they can book, till they pressure the birds out of the area. I've never lost any sleep over it, but If I had to step down on one side of the fence, I would lean toward no guides on public water. The bottom line is those that can, do. Those that can't, hire a guide.

I 100% agree there should be no guiding on public land.

Factual fact and sig worthy

Well ducknbass, I still have not got a reply from TPWD. Enough days have passed that I doubt I will get an answer. I don't have a dog in the fight, so I'm not going to press the issue with them. Either public waterfowl guides are breaking the law unenforced or it is is legal to also guide on public land in Texas. I don't see how it can be both for the answer they gave previously. Not to mention some or most guided public waterfowl hunts actually take place from on the adjacent public land or shoreline anyway. I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for guiding on public land or water and that answer I posted from another forum member was like from 7 years ago. When I had asked and got the same answer it was farther back than that, but I no longer have the email to reference. The way the current hunting lease license code reads it seems to put the responsibility on the landowner rather than hunter so maybe something changed with that regulation since back then. For now the official answers remain a mystery.

Government at work.

I am 100% in favor of guides on public. No one person's desires is any more important than the next. It is only when the other infringes on the next guy that a problem is created. I have rarely had trouble with a guide on public. In fact only once, but it was not a guide. It was the kid he hired to sit in the blind to reserve the spot that I had a, run in, not worthy of calling it a problem. He told me to get out. I said no. He made a round about threat of "If you don't you will be sorry". He was all of a buck fifty and scared poopless. He just didn't want to get in trouble with his guide boss for going fishing while he was supposed to sit his narrow little butt in the blind. I have a problem with trashing the bays and wasting of our resources. As I shouldn't be allowed to infringe on a man's right to making a living, he shouldn't be allowed to infringe on my rights either. Far too long it has been rather one sided.

This is a really well thought out and good response. Theses are all of the issues I have with guides on public. I too don’t lose sleep over it but I do feel it is a slippery slope that could/has ruined something that I love so much. Something I would ask if anyone else feels like it seems to be getting worse and worse?