Blackcloud and ported chokes

I have read in a few places that you shouldn't use Blackcloud in a ported choke because the wad fins can catch on the holes and cause issues like irregular patterns all the way up to the barrel blowing up from an obstruction.

There is no warning on the box, or the choke that says DO NOT USE IN PORTED CHOKE TUBES/DO NOT USE BLACKCLOUD IN THIS CHOKE... which if they were truly dangerous I'd expect to see it. I shoot a Kick's HF MOD in my gun and I did use about half a box of BC the last day of the first split. My gun seemed to have no issues with killing ducks and I had no wads get stuck in the barrel- obviously.

I have really been giving it lots of thought and I just cannot wrap my head around why this rumor seems to be so popular. Does anybody have any actual guidance/warnings from Federal or any choke maker? If so, please post a link for me... I have emailed Kick's but they have not gotten back to me yet.

When I put my redneck physics degree thinking cap on... there's just no way at 1450fps a little piece of plastic is going to lodge itself so bad in those diagonally cut ports the last 1" of the tube and cause a barrel obstruction. If it was that serious, wouldn't that wad stick to the gas ports in any gas-op semi auto the same way? Or the ported barrel of my Mossberg 835? My guess is the worst that could happen is that some tiny piece of plastic gets cut off and expelled out the ports.

By the way... I have found wads from blackclouds and measured it up. By the time the "fins" would possibly catch on the ports of my Kick's HF, the open end of the shot cup is already protruding 1/16" from the end of the tube so the whole "irregular pattern" deal seems like it is just a bunch of hogwash.

Am I right? Or am I crazy? Somebody on here has got to have some factual info for me.

I think all you're going to get from Kicks is the recommendation they already post on their web-site:

"High Flyer chokes are not recommended for use with Federal Black Cloud ammunition. For those shells, you will need our Vortex choke tube. You can find them here."

http://www.kicks-ind.com/category/highflyer.html

Patternmaster chokes say not to shoot a shell with a flight control wad.

I shoot the same choke in my Extrema 2. I use the cheap shells. Really like the Kent Faststeel. Ducks don't seem to like the combo as most of them fall from the sky. I'm sure the high$ shells have some advantages, but I can't seem to get past the part where ducks fall from the sky with the cheaper shells. No worries about warnings....just saying....

It sounds like more of an advertisement than a warning.

And I use Blackcloud because I like it. I really like it. Plus I grabbed four boxes of 3" 1 1/4oz #3's @ $19.99/box at academy during the first split. That's the same price as the Drylok Super Steel I was using and having success with. I am a firm believer in Blackcloud ammo, but I am in no way saying it's the best. It is just a real solid performer for me out of both duck guns and when I can get it at $20 per box I buy it. Now, if only 3" Hevi Metal #4's were $20/box I'd never look back...

Glad you got a good deal on the BC. If I was shooting that tube (which I am) and that ammo, I'd change something. If that is not a warning I don't know what one is. When a manufacturer says they don't recommend something popular (BC) to be used with their product, it is usually because they have multiple cases where failure occurred. I wouldn't risk that combo when there are other options, even with my physics degree.....

Not to highjack the thread, but has anyone had issues with Hypersonics out of ported choke tube as well?

My Pattern Master says not to shoot anything that fast through it

I'm shooting a Patternmaster now, but I used to shot a Kicks High Flyer before and all I used was Federal Powershok or the blue box. I patterned my shotgun out to 60 yards with that Patternmaster and was blown away with the results and hammered birds with that combo all last year. I picked up some of BC on a smoking deal a few months ago and never really paid much attention to shooting them through my extended ported chokes. But come to think of it, this past weekend was the second time I've really hunted with the BC and shot almost an entire box before shooting my limit Saturday. I had not been that frustrated in a longggg time and not blaming it solely on the choke/loads. I'm sure a lot of it was the Indian, not the arrow but after reading your comment about irregular patterns that might explain something....Food for thought I guess.

I skipped replies...it's not the ports it's the wad strippers that some chokes like pattern master use that you should not use.

"WILL BLACK CLOUD WORK WITH MY AFTERMARKET CHOKE?

Black Cloud FS Steel® uses the proprietary FLITECONTROL® wad-designed to leave the barrel with the shot to keep your pattern tight and get to the ducks quicker. For maximum performance we recommend using standard, factory chokes that do not strip the wad or reduce muzzle pressure. We are currently working with popular choke companies on new tubes specially designed for Black Cloud."

UPDATE:

I cut open a BC shell and a standard steel load with a standard 2 piece (petal opening) wad to do some experimenting with the wads and choke tubes on my workbench. Here's what I found...

The BC wad does pass through the Kick's choke, and is very unlikely to hang up... but there is definitely some very tiny amounts of plastic shaving off in the ports when I used a push rod to get the wad through the choke tube. When examined closely after the first pass, the wad shows almost rifle-like shallow scratches on the outside of the wad that run the entire length of the wad. Also, with the Kick's HF MOD I had to use a great deal more pressure to get the wad to pop out the end when compared to pushing it through my Factory IMP CYL tube. I then pushed it through my factory MOD and it was a little easier- but not much different when compared to the Kick's.

Then I tested the standard wad... Same plastic shavings, same scratches, but since the standard wad had the petals cut from the front instead of the rear, the pressure required to force it through both the Kick's and factory MOD chokes was would noticeably less because the petals were able to crunch down a bit in the tube like they are designed to do.

What does this mean?

Well, not much can be learned from this particular test. Given the crude manner of the experiment, neither wad was actually subjected to the amount of force generated when the powder is burned and the payload is rocketed through the bore at 1450fps, so I was not able to actually see what both wads look like when the gas seals on the ends are fully expanded... or if that is going to cause the forward facing BC wad tabs to "stick out" during the time it is still in the barrel. I don't see how it could because the gas seal is formed behind them and they are the same thickness as the shot cup and they sit flush with the rest of the shot cup. I don't think there's any possibility they can expand until the wad is completely out of the barrel and the shot has exited the wad. I'd actually LOVE for someone to shoot some high speed camera video of the Payload exiting the barrel so we can all bear witness to the Flight Control wad theory.

Will I shoot it through my Kick's choke again??? Nah, probably not since it won't make any difference in patterning Blackcloud, and Kick's doesn't "recommend" it.

What did I learn? The solid facts I have taken away from this little test are that if you're shooting a MOD choke you are probably building some more pressure in the barrel and gaining a little velocity over shooting an IMP CYL choke. That is, unless the gas expansion has already maxed out in the barrel before the wad exits the choke. I also came to a conclusion that based on that fact alone, my previously held belief of "It doesn't matter what choke you use with BC, it will pattern the same" is simply not true since different chokes will affect muzzle velocity a great deal. You may not be able to constrict the actual shot inside the shot cup like a standard wad can do, but you can change how much pressure you build behind it by changing constriction.

TLTR

Blackcloud sucks, use better ammo

There's some next level overthinking goin on up in hurruh

Please define how Blackcloud sucks. I'm not understanding what facts you have to base that on. In my experience it has been really good ammo, so if I've been pretty good at killing ducks with ammo that "sucks", then the better ammo you recommend should be an absolute sky-raper for me.

If you think blackcloud is a good ammo I bet you also use ranch dressing on buffalo wings

No hope

What are you shooting these days Garrett?

Kent, patterns well, burns clean and inexpensive

No need for gimmick ammo when you decoy em

It's not that Black Cloud sucks....it actually works just fine. My issue is value...for a lot less I can buy cheaper ammo that will give me the exact same results as far as birds in the bag. There is not enough advantage to make them worth buying.

I definitely don't think BC is a gimmick. It does do what it is designed to do. It is basically an external wad stripping choke made out of plastic. I do like Drylok Super Steel and I do pretty well with Kents as I recall. I just like BC and when I see 1450fps 3" #3's at $20 I grab them up... Kent's cost me more $$$ because I gotta drive a ways to get them, or pay for shipping. After doing my 3.5" testing the first split I have set my price cap at $20 per box.

...and who in their right mind would ever put ranch on wings??? Should be a class C felony.

Gimmick

That's what Winchester said to Mr. John M. Browning when he pitched his design for the A-5... And then?

Your comparing blackcloud to the A5?

Duck commander had his picture on the box, that's all that needs to be said

Go home scooter, you're drunk

Don't want to write a book about this, but want to help out the OP and educate a few (before a couple years ago, I didn't half what I know now).

1) A lot of companies out there are building cheap arse chokes that do nothing but take money out of your pocket.
2) Premium ammo like Heavy Metal tries to copy lead by being heavy mostly (steel is lighter and doesn't fly as well).
3) premium ammo like Black Cloud do a combo of weight and use a wad to try and give you a better pattern. I only use regular chokes with this type of ammo. No ported or restricted (like pattern master).
4) Pattern master chokes do some amazing things with your flight pattern. They shorten the flight cone...meaning more pellets hit the target at the same time compared to cheap ammo with regular choke....this is why we wound so many ducks.

Most people (like I use to) will pattern shells with different chokes/ammo and think they are getting a "great" pattern. What we don't realize is that 40% of the pellets hit a first and the other 60% hit a split second later (after the duck is out of the kill zone). Looks good on paper, but if you had a high speed camera slowed down, you would see what I mean.

I like the premium ammo when I can get it cheap.

What I really like is the Pattern Master choke tube with the cheapest Rio, Kent, Expert or Federals.

Jury is out on which one works better, but if you hunt as much as me, the Pattern Master with cheap ammo is cheaper in the long run (short run for me).

FYI. I have no affiliation with Pattern Master and this is my opinion only based on my experiences.

I wouldn't use the word "gimmick", but I do understand the argument about value. I actually picked up 23 boxes of 3in #2's blackcloud on sale for $292.05 shipped to my door. That comes out to about $12.69 a box so I certainly don't mind shooting it for that price.

I would definitely follow the recommendation not to use them with certain chokes. If a manufacturer is willing to do anything that might reduce their sales there has to be some significance to it. Especially since federal, to my knowledge doesn't sale their own choke tubes.

Only my shoulder has problems with HyperSonics

I shoot Federals and Winchesters, really cheap- $10 a box last season........
plus you don't have to decoy ducks when you hunt where they want to be

Not to try to revive a dead horse, but I thought this was an interesting read... http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tactics/tips_strategies_wf_smartwads_1209/

I learned a long time ago that when you use but in a sentence, it wipes out everything you stated just before saying but. So in this case we can wipe out this part "Not to try to revive a dead horse" and go staright to saying you are beating a deadhorse. Notsaying that is bad, just clarifying our inner fellings

Wal you must be happily married haha. If that's the case, let's try this again....

Read 'em and weep boys! http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tactics/tips_strategies_wf_smartwads_1209/

Ok I was only poking a little fun at you in the last post. The next response will surely tick you off. I apologize in advance if I seem to be trying to agitate you. I assure you I am not trying to be an agitator. So here you go. Part of his scientific study was his three buddies connecting with ducks at over 55 yards. We kill geese out to 55 yards with Walmart Sure Shots and an aftermarket choke all the time, big deal. His method of scientific evaluation does not match the claim “Ballistics Expert”. I compare his method to Billy Bob Thornton smelling an onion field and claiming to be a farmer.
I refuse to be swayed by the sales pitch of all this “new fangled” duck hunting stuff. The police business is the same way. We have a member of administration here that was praised some time ago. That person presented an idea of “Crime Reduction Unit”. Everyone loved it! The old heads that have been policing for a long long time all sat back and asked “Aren’t all policeman crime reduction units”? You see it is the marketer that wins these games. Coops aren’t new, shotshells aren’t new. The way the game is presented is the only new thing to the game.
Winchester realizes nothing changes the outcome of a pellet once it leaves that barrel. What you got is what you got. So they specifically designed the shotcup to change that, control the pellets longer. It takes our eye off of the prize. The prize is getting ducks over the decoys, fooling them. Not hitting them as far as you can see them. Winchester’s prize is making the money in your pocket become the money in their pocket.

blackcloud duck loads still suck

I mean they kill ducks... but so do the cheapo rounds...

Its all about tha shooter

I agree nav

I refuse to put a cheap shotgun shell in my mossberg.

Lol

No hard feelings Wal. I was mainly posting that article in regards to the "Different Choke Required" segment. Unless I misunderstood the title of Scooter's thread, I thought he was after info on blackcloud loads and aftermarket chokes, not the killing capabilities with Xperts or Walmart loads.

scooter was drinking that night, he doesnt know what he wanted

Says the man that rolled out of bed at a cool 8:30.

I've got this white man thing figured out, Jack

Does bossman agree with these tactics?

they dont call me "yes sir" around here for nothing

Not "yes sir", "bas turd", inside joke I'm sure.

I'll show 'em the table if they mouthy

Don't forget to lock those wheels.

Couldn't leave Scooter out.