Re: Got millet?

You boys are in the worng on this one... Straight from TPWD ...

Baiting
A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops;
•at any time over natural vegetation that has been manipulated. Natural vegetation does not include planted millet. However, planted millet that grows on its own in subsequent years after the planting is considered natural vegetation

By the way this reads, all your holes you planted this year will be considered illegal....

From TPWD website...

Baiting
A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops;
•at any time over natural vegetation that has been manipulated. Natural vegetation does not include planted millet. However, planted millet that grows on its own in subsequent years after the planting is considered natural vegetation;•on or over a normal soil stabilization practice;
•on or over lands or areas where seeds or grains have been scattered solely as a result of a normal agricultural practice except waterfowl and cranes may not be hunted where grain or other feed has been distributed or scattered as the result of:
◦pre-harvest manipulation of an agricultural crop; or
◦livestock feeding;
•over crops or natural vegetation where grain has been inadvertently scattered as a result of entering or leaving a hunting area, placing decoys or retrieving downed birds;
•using natural vegetation or crops to conceal a blind, provided that if crops are used to conceal a blind, no grain or other feed is exposed, deposited, distributed or scattered in the process.

A hunter may not:

•hunt migratory birds with the aid of bait, or on or over any baited area;
•hunt over any baited area until 10 days after all baiting materials have been removed;
•hunt waterfowl or cranes over manipulated planted millet, unless the millet was planted not less than one year prior to hunting;•hunt waterfowl or cranes over crops that have been manipulated, unless the manipulation is a normal agricultural post-harvesting manipulation in accordance with official recommendations of State Extension Specialists of the Cooperative Extension Service of the U.S. Department of Agricultur

I planted mine last August.

Wow, I had forgotten about food plots being a no no for waterfowl. In the past i have never had private land so i didnt need to worry about it ... the feds address it too.

"Wildlife Food Plots:
You cannot legally hunt waterfowl over freshly planted wildlife food plots where grain or seed has been distributed, scattered, or exposed because these plots are not normal agricultural plantings or normal soil stabilization practices. Wildlife food plots may be considered a normal agricultural practice, but they do not meet the definition of a normal agricultural planting, harvest, post-harvest manipulation, or a normal soil stabilization practice."

Manipulated is the key word. If you plant it then leave it alone you are legal. Shred it, stomp it, kick it around and you are in trouble.

Millet is overated in my opinion anyway. Too expensive and too risky as far as growth success.

Hmmmn, this is going to be an interesting discussion.....!

Please read your own post. I portent word is manipulated! As long as you do not do anything like shred or plow or other methods of Manipulate the plants you are legal.

Fed Gamewarden approved!!

Oh here we go again..

Manipulated! Don't manipulate (i.e, shred it, trample it, etc..) and you can hunt over it. If it comes up the next season, you can cut it down and hunt over it.

You guys need to get your stuff together before you call someone out on their own thread. Manipulated is the key word! You can plant as much as you want, but you cannot manipulate it unless it has come back on it's own the following year.

DU spends a lot of time and effort on millet and drainable flats

I was not trying to call anyone out. And i now see that the texas regulation is a sub-part of the manipulation section. The fed regulation is specifically targeted at food plots though. I really am not trying to make waves or anything like that, just interested in what is and isnt legal.

Correction

Does anyone have a legal definition for what they consider "Manipulation"?
This is pretty typical of most hunting laws they are written with a lot of leeway as to what some of the terms mean. Its frustrating to me to try and figure out what is legal and what isn't.

I guess it is really down to how someone chooses to intemperate "freshly".

The state of Oklahoma is in big trouble then cause they plant millet by the ton on many public hunting lakes. Along with several other state wildlife agencies.

The manipulated talk is in the federal regs as well.

Exactly...

X3

I am not going to argue with you here, like I said, just looking for what is definitively legal. The fed reg I posted is the complete section with no inclusion of the word "manipulated", the only wiggle room I see is in the use of the word "freshly"

When you scatter millet seed to plant, you hunt over that is baiting if there is seed on the ground. The seed needs to be gone for 10 days before you can hunt over it.

Correct from what i have heard but I'm calling in the am to get verification

I'm calling the GW in the am to get verification, I don't have a fog in this fight but am very curious.

The "manipulation" only pretains to natural vegetation. As it states, millet is not considered natural vegetation and therefore, see paragraph two...

Dave

My bad guys, I do appreciate yall clearing it up for me.

You obviously did not read the last sentence of the reg you posted because it does talk about not "manipulating or disturbing"

It does but the sentence is talking about what Food Plots are not considered.

You are reading it wrong bro. The second bullet is only talking about "natural" vegetation. Natural vegetation anytime, not natural you cannot manipulate, unless you are following normal farming practice per Cooperative Extension Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture..

You are not making sense. It clearly states the manipulation regaurding natural vegatation is perfectly legal. Manipulation of planted vegatation is when you break the law.

I have no stock in this discussion but if its ok to manipulate natural vegetation and ok to hunt over natural millet, but not to hunt over planted millet <1 year old, and its not ok to hunt over manipulated millet, what other kind of millet is there?

Sounds like a lot of rationalization..better start deleting old posts and photos boys!

It is not Illegal...... Just like hunting teal over a rice field. That rice is planted, as long as you do not "rail" or manipulate it you are perfectly legal.

If you plant millet this year then see line 1. If you planted it last season then it is now natural vegetation and therefore see line 2. Not that hard.

Baiting
A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops;
•at any time over natural vegetation that has been manipulated. Natural vegetation does not include planted millet. However, planted millet that grows on its own in subsequent years after the planting is considered natural vegetation;

You have to use some common sense here:

1) Who is going to plant millet give up a full year of not hunting it, just so the next year maybe 5% comes back as "natural", so I can mow it down and hunt it? No body does that.

2) As posted above, ODWC plants it by the ton on public land, the same law applies to them.

You have to use common sense here as well, there is not a clear definition. Mow and shred, trample (a stretch).

http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/facts_maps/wma/kaw.htm

Too bad we don't have a GW on the forum.

Every Year. New Guys. Same stuff. You Boys stay off my planted Millet. Im hunting all by myself.

Here mista GW take me in. Hunting millet last season.











This years crop.

If ya wanna bust some people on the internet, start asking who hunts ag feedlots...

All those plots look good, and should help this year.



I see tons of IGWs on here all the time

Nice limits.

When I was a kid my father and I had a lease that backed up to the MG feed mill.. You want to talk about killing some doves and pigeons! lol

Gravy Wheels is now wishing he would've planted some millet... and passed reading comprehension.

LOL, ain't that the truf!

We got real GWs on here as well, but I have never seen them post to interpret game laws. JMO, baiting is loosely written for a reason, because no matter what kind of rules you lay, there is always going to be someone trying to “beat the system”, add more rules will not help, it will just make it more complicated and will end up looking like our tax code, and folks will still find a way around the words. Like manipulation, I’m guessing the sprit of that rule is simply mowing and shredding, and then someone trying to beat the system says “well what if I drive over it with my 4wheeler??”, again, you got to use some common sense and understand the spirit of the rule, JMO!!

Spoke to anonymous GW and he stated that by his interpretation if you flood it it is ok to hunt it. If you do not flood it and you planted this year you cannot hunt it. However he states that in order to really tell if it was planted this year they would have to send off to biologist and get it analyzed which is a huge hassle. Keep in mind he stated its vague so it is up to each GW's interpretation.

My take is its perfectly fine but if they really have a problem with you they can split hairs and make an issue of anything thats in that book.

Your GW is wrong

Baiting
A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops;

Big thing here guys is if it was planted this year or has come back of it's own accord in subsequent years. If you planted it this year, you can not hunt it. From a GW i personally know. Again, enforecement is hard to do without a lab testing it.

Dave

And, I'm not concerned about what other state regs are for plantings, I'm talking Texas....

Dave

Your GW is Wrong.

A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over (ANY, Millet, Corn, Milo ect.....) standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops

Unbelievable.....I will post the link that has a little more definition to it, but I'm sure some will not be able to undetrstand "normal agricultural practices". But to plant millet within the specified window, do not manipulate, hunt to your hearts content is the basic.

http://www.fws.gov/le/HuntFish/waterfowl_baiting.htm

Sorry, but your game warden is wrong. If he writes a ticket for hunting over this year's millet, it will be thrown out of court.

Obviously your game warden should have been part of the TPWD cuts this year.

You can keep trying to defend your side, which really doesn't make sense to anyone else except you and your game warden buddy, but the bottom line is that all of us that have planted millet this year are going to hunt it this year and forever because it is within the rules that have been set forth. You, or any other game warden for that matter, aren't going to stop that.

Baiting
A hunter may hunt any migratory game bird:

•over standing crops, standing flooded crops and flooded harvested crops;
•at any time over natural vegetation that has been manipulated. Natural vegetation does not include planted millet. However, planted millet that grows on its own in subsequent years after the planting is considered natural vegetation;•on or over a normal soil stabilization practice;

Response: Okay, since I planted millet this year (less than a year ago) it is not considered natural vegetation. So, this says that if I planted millet this year (not considered natural vegetation), then I manipulate it and hunt over it, I’m in trouble. If I don’t manipulate it, I’m good to go.

•on or over lands or areas where seeds or grains have been scattered solely as a result of a normal agricultural practice except waterfowl and cranes may not be hunted where grain or other feed has been distributed or scattered as the result of:
&#9702;pre-harvest manipulation of an agricultural crop; or
&#9702;livestock feeding;
•over crops or natural vegetation where grain has been inadvertently scattered as a result of entering or leaving a hunting area, placing decoys or retrieving downed birds;
•using natural vegetation or crops to conceal a blind, provided that if crops are used to conceal a blind, no grain or other feed is exposed, deposited, distributed or scattered in the process.

A hunter may not:

•hunt migratory birds with the aid of bait, or on or over any baited area;
•hunt over any baited area until 10 days after all baiting materials have been removed;
•hunt waterfowl or cranes over manipulated planted millet, unless the millet was planted not less than one year prior to hunting;•hunt waterfowl or cranes over crops that have been manipulated, unless the manipulation is a normal agricultural post-harvesting manipulation in accordance with official recommendations of State Extension Specialists of the Cooperative Extension Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture

Response: Okay, so I can’t hunt waterfowl over manipulated planted millet. Notice it says “planted millet.” This means we are not talking about millet that is considered natural vegetation, but rather millet that was planted this year. So if I can’t hunt over manipulated planted millet, I guess I will just plant it and not manipulate it and hunt over it that way.
Is any of this sinking in?

Man, I'm kinda torn both ways now....at first I was gungho for legal..my one question after reading all of this is:

IF the Warden rights you a ticket for baiting....and the court asks you: "Why did you plant the millet?" what are you going to say that doesn't sound like baiting?

Please don't dog me, I just confuse myself after alot of reading

Why do you need a reason?

its a common food crop and per definition it is huntable if its a crop...

"I guess all the seed must have washed down to the pond when it rained, your honor"

Assuming he writes you up for hunting a baited field, you have to prove your innocence right? You are going to tell them you planted it < 1 year ago and is not manipulated. Are you saying with just that info alone court will drop it?

What else would you say??? That is the law and you are within its boundaries...

I guess when I picture "crops" I picture a field being farmed and harvested for that crop, not the edge of a pond. I thought that's where the normal agricultural harvesting verbage came in.

That's what I am saying, because that's the way it is written.

Cool, I think the confusion comes in when they say it's considered Nat Veg >1yr after planting...why don't they just call it a crop and be done with it?

I agree, that's where some of the confusion is, but the thought process is really quite simple if you just read it and think about it.

1. Am I hunting natural vegetation? No, because I planted it less than a year ago. Therefore I must be hunting planted millet.

2. Now that I know I am hunting over planted millet and not natural vegetation, the rule says that I am not allowed to hunt over MANIPULATED planted millet. No problem, I will just plant my millet and not manipulate it.

I don't think anybody needs to be berated or called out for asking this type of question. Most permits/laws are written in such a way that many of us will never FULLY understand each little detail in them. That's why people ask the question. This site gives a better laymens term descriptions of most of the verbiage in question:

http://www.fws.gov/le/HuntFish/waterfowl_baiting.htm


Rob Robertson: How many game wardens have you encountered?? Go ahead and tell them how wrong they are about their job while they are writing you the ticket. See how that goes over.

works for me, and to be clear, you can plant rice and or corn on the pond's edge too and hunt with no issues correct?

I hunt a Public Border Lake. I have hunted said lake for 32 seasons this year. I am checked by Game Wardens three to six times each season. Two state Wardens and Federal Warden also. I have told them they are wrong and proved it as well. Had a State and Federal Warden together in an airboat. Said I was hunting Oklahoma. Told them they were wrong. Proved it with a GPS Map program. BTW I had both license. They just needed to know for the next guy down the lake. Got stopped one time for passinfg in a no passing Zone. Showed that guy the broken line on the highway. Got out of that one also. Just because they are law enforcement dont make them right.

What does this paragraph mean?
Planting
A normal agricultural planting is undertaken for the purpose of producing a crop. The Fish and Wildlife Service does not make a distinction between agricultural fields planted with the intent to harvest a crop and those planted without such intent so long as the planting is in accordance with recommendations from the Cooperative Extension Service

Obviously those who plant the millet do not intend to harvest it so is planting on a pond bank "within the rec from the Coop Ext service?"

Have you seen the original post? The guy came on and started telling us how planting and hunting over millet was against the law when he didn't even have his facts straight. I won't speak for Rob, but the game warden can write as many tickets as he wants. The doesn't mean that it's going to be upheld. In this case, it will be thrown out.

Some of the GW's I deal with last Season.






Just so You know. I was not being hauled off to Jail in the airboat. Preseason Ride along. If You get a Ticket on a north Texas Border Lake for hunting in the wrong state. Its because "I" showed them where the border is.

found another picture.

You obviously have much more experience with them than me, I just would never say that to any GW's in my area. That would be when the nit picky stuff starts to happen. Maybe just different personalities of officers in my area I guess.

Duckbill I'm sure the OP was just reading through the regs and saw something that he thought would be useful for others to know. It was discussed and other pertinent wording was introduced to get the clear answer. He was still confused so he needed more clarification. He didn't get combative or argumentative, just throwing the information he thought was right out there.

No biggie either way I guess.

I will add to this discussion. You can hunt millet the year you plant it. You may not manipulate it. as stated earlier. I have been to Tyler enforcement hdq. for clarification. YOU MAY HUNT MILLET. Do not mow, trample, scatter. Going to and from the blind does not count as manipulation.

My ex girlfriend said she felt manipulated.

Hope this helps.

Was that when she found out about your boyfriend?

:Yikes:

It is a joke when folks try to argue with Rob on things like this....

Trust me..... there is one somewhere out there

I may be wrong on this, but my interpretation, I think where the normal agricultural harvesting practices comes into play is with 1) manipulation and 2) 10 day rule as follows:

Manipulation: If you are following normal agricultural harvesting practices, you can manipulate (either harvest, shred, plow, whatever) if normal farming practice and hunt over it. This will all knock seed on the ground.

10 day rule: Planting leaves seed on the ground, if you are following normal agricultural harvesting practices, this rule would not apply. Example, planting winter wheat is normal farming practices during duck season, this will leave seed on the ground, but you can still hunt over that.

That’s how I interpretive that. Don't manipulate and follow 10 day rule and you are good on millet.

Cool beans, and planting corn or rice by hand like this is cool as well correct as long as there are no loose seeds on the ground?

Sheesh!!! Cant a guy crack a joke around here?

I have the end-all answer to this debate; spoke with US Fish and Wildlife Headquarters in Virginia, the people who make the rules regarding bating waterfowl etc, including the rules Texas has to follow.

It is 100% legal to hunt planted standing millet, even if planted around tanks alone for the purpose of hunting. They have to be STANDING crops.

After 1 year if it grows back you are allowed to do whatever you want to that crop ie mow, cut, trample, burn, roll around naked in, because it is now natural vegetation.

Year 1, plant it flood it hunt it, but don't touch it.
Year 2, do whatever you want to it.

Hope this helps, I have no investment in this discussion just thought I would do my best to help all those involved.

He also said you can use any other crop the same manner; such as corn but you cannot cut it, it too must be standing because it is not natural if planted in last year.

I know I kinda started this discussion, so I should post something...

I had the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the NRCS, and the TP&W Game Wardens come out to my property and all three told me I was fine...

Also, the USFW Chief Biologist for N. Texas, (that was out here over a year ago) told me I had voluntary millet growing in several of my ponds, and in the wetland areas. Thus millet had already existed and that it would be "legal" to over seed the area with more millet, as a cover crop for the dirtwork done.



With the amount of millet Oklahoma plants on TEXOMA, ducks will eat the millet and then fly South, as they hit other wetlands, and ponds, they CRAP what they eat, which can and will cause areas to produce voluntary millet.

There is several water holes that have(had) millet grow on its own. According to USFW and TP&W: millet that is in an area for more then one year is considered natural vegitation, thus, overseeding millet is just adding natural vegitation...

Like many have stated. You are fine, as long as you don't manipulate the millet, by mowing, shreading, or whatnot...

You are legal if the cows get into it, eat it, trample it, whatever...

Like Redleg said, Planting millet is a very high Risk! Takes alot of stars to align for it to do well!

BTW, all my millet is doing very well!!!!!

J.J.

I planted a decent amount last year and it did well until mid september then burned up around that time. Your gonna need some rain in the next few weeks or it will be in trouble unless the mud you planted in stays wet.

It is so incredible to me that this topic comes up year after year.

It is legal to hunt over planted food as long as it's not manipulated. Period.

I own a large property and have a close relationship with NRCS and Game Wardens and they all confirm.

Manipulation it intentionally knocking seed and food to the ground weather it is by hand or tool. You and your dog will knock some down under normal hunting and that is ok. About 20 yrs ago I hunted next to a marsh that planted corn then brush hogged it instead of combining. They all went to jail and they shut the marsh down for 5yrs. I guess they had been doing it for a few years and the GW got them on video to prove the case. Our hutning improved after shutting them down.