107 gr. Sierra TMK Did Not Perform As Hoped.

I want to say up front that from my initial zeroing that it would appear that Defender Ammunition Company loaded this ammo just fine. I only had a short time on the range and did not shoot for groups and did not chrono the ammo, but it cycled well. It shot where expected when I was zeroing. The bullet may or may not be up to the task, however. This is a first test. A sample of one is not conclusive of anything. I may have enjoyed too much creating a catch phrase from Defender Ammo's disclaimer (which I violated).

Well heck! I suppose you will have to shoot 4-5 more pigs to find out what the problem is.

All things considered - I’d take that shot all day and expect the hog to at least succumb after a short run.

I just don’t get the website statement : why mention what hunters want to hear and the waive it off with a “not recommended for hunting” disclaimer ...

Hopefully the ammo maker reviews your ultimate outcomes and just revises the statement to a not for hunting position BUT waiting to see more shots before getting to that point

I don't know, but given the statement, I had try it. Maybe I got sucked into a marketing ploy?

I guess you could use one shot as an average but until you see what happened to a bullet pulled from a hog we just don't know. The angle might have caused the bullet to deflect forward to run between the hide and the ribs and exit where we couldn't see.

Right, without the hog, no idea what happened with the bullet.

Shot looked dead on to me. Hog reacted as if hard hit.

Most likely proposition, bullet did not hold together (owing to short distance and velocity). Inadequate penetration. Hog is dead somewhere...but probably ran a quarter mile before stopping.

You could shoot that same bullet (at the same distance) into a box of wetted newspaper and I bet you find it is very explosive, but lacking penetration (at such short distances).

You made a good shot, no question about that.

Have you tried 120 grain Gold Dots ?

Looked like a good shot, but that particular hog did not seem overly impressed.

Hmm, looking forward to future reports.

Grumble grumble grumble. It needed 350 yards to make it to the thicket which is the direction it was heading, the direction the hogs appeared to come from. Grumble grumble grumble.

Well, the TMK suggests a tipped match king bullet. Seems to me that the smaller the caliber, the tougher the bullet needs to be for hogs. Personally, I wouldn’t use a match bullet for that service. Maybe for a whitetail, but those dang hogs are tough.

I probably don't understand the point.

Sierra specifically states;
" While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications."

If you want dead pigs hit them in or slightly below/behind / around the ear.
At 40 ~ 80 yards a 40gr .22 wmr ear shot drops them quite well.

Fairly obvious your shooting skills, rifle & ammo accuracy are capable of making an 'ear shot' .

Rustler and 603Country, I can appreciate your perspectives, but have given up believing the marketing pitches for bullets. I have purchased "hunting" bullets that sucked as hunting bullets, despite how the manufacturer marketed them. The most common problems I have found are hunting bullets that fail to open and end up not doing what they are purportedly designed to do. On the other hand, hunters loved the Hornady AMAX round for hunting despite it being a match bullet that Hornady specifically said was not for hunting. Lots feel the same way about the replacement ELD-M (M is for match) ammo as well. I have had outstanding success with using Federal American Eagle Speer TNT 90 gr. (marketed as) varmint ammo on hogs up to 330 lbs in size. I have found where Berger VLD-Hunting was supposed to have limited penetration with near-explosive fragmentation resulting in hydrostatic shock that turned out to have excellent fragmentation with extreme penetration and no hydrostatic shock. I actually liked the performance of this bullet despite it not matching manufacturer advertising. It was hell on hogs. Controlled Chaos in brass turned out to be an abysmal performer despite how they were marketed for animal control. When recovered from animals, the animals often had to be shot multiple times and the recovered bullets failed to open and wound channels from other hits looked to pencil right through.

So I like to do some of my own testing and find out what works and doesn't work in the caliber that I shoot. I am more inclined to believe that manufacturers have marketing motivations that do not always jive with my hunting wants and needs.

I might be more impressed if manufacturers stipulated why they don't recommend their ammo for hunting or sizes of animals, but they usually don't. They give preferences and recommendations, but no basis for why those are made.

Yes Rustler, I can make high CNS shots on hogs just fine, but shooting hogs in the head doesn't really test the bullet's capability. At 40 yards, I could use a subsonic .22 round to get the job done. .22 wmr would just be overkill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7kgpIaGeI&t=205s

The bullet should perform fine. But the shot placement on that pig was far from ideal. With a 100 yard zero, your bullet will be about 1” to 1.5” low at 40 yards. The boar was quartering away slightly and the shot was right in the shoulder. So the bullet entrance would be low and traveling slightly forward. If you are shoulder shooting a big pig the bullet has to go in at an angle where it will tear up internals. I don’t think that shot from that angle and at 40 yards hit enough internals to do any damage. At that angle, I would have aimed higher and further back behind the shoulder. I don’t aim for shoulder on pigs for this reason.

Perhaps I'm just ignorant, but isn't 106 grains a tad light for hogs?

Chad, thank you for taking the time to consider the shot! Yes, the shot was far from ideal. Ideal is a CNS shot. I didn't want a CNS shot or I would have shot the head. Had I hit the spine, in all likelihood, it would have stopped or mostly stopped the penetration of the bullet

It was a sow, not a boar. She had her piglets in tow.

My ballistic calculator says 1.04" low at 40 yards. I was zeroed above the horizontal crosshair, hence the placement of the red dot to show impact.

The hog was very slightly quartered away. I lined up where heart-girth measurements are taken, back at the pit behind the front leg that was not extended forward. That put the bullet vertically aligned with heart/lung.

I think you are right in that the bullet should have done the job. It should have missed heavy bone and only had to deal with a rib or ribs on entry.



Not necessarily, but weight is one way to address the issue. Plenty of folks take hogs with much lighter ammo. People tend to trade weight for velocity, ideally achieving appropriate penetration and bullet performance regardless of which way they decide to go.

I kill many pigs, and can see nothing wrong with the shot placement. I normally shoot them through the shoulder or forward of that area. My favorite bullets are the Hornady 123 SST's and they seldom exit when hitting a hog through the shoulder...but do massive internal damage. I'm thinking that bullet made a pencil hole and didn't perform like it should.

The shot location looked Ok to me too. Looked like a lung shot, which suggests two things: the hog will run and the hog will die. And, I wouldn’t expect there to be much of a blood trail or a far side exit.

I shoot 120 gr Nosler BTs, and I don’t get many exits on pigs, though I got one yesterday.

I have shot over a 1000 of the 6.5mm 107 smk bullets . They are a great target bullet [ most of mine shot in low grade matches , I use real match bullets for big time matches ] but seem to be too long for the caliber and the tend to pencil through game . In testing they seem to want to bend not open up . That means a lot less shock , a small hole and less internal damage . I have my own game range and hunt a friends 160,000 a + ranch , I have shot a lot of hogs . I also wildcat my own cartridges and build the rifles to shoot them . I like heavy.45 to .50 cal pistol bullets at rifle velocities . When they hit , they do expand with a massive wound channel , rarely exit , transfer all 3500 - 5000 fpe to the hog with so much shock it knocks them off their feet . The total opposite of long small bullets . So even with smaller caliber I like to retain as many of the above factors as possible with my load combination . My cartridges were designed after I had and saw short comings in other cartridges , the big ones like 375 H&H to 458 have such heavy jacketed bullets made to penetrate large game they zip right through something as small as a hog with out transferring much energy . So yes there are no " magic " bullets , I just try and tune my set up for the exact hunting I am doing . Stalk hunting hogs at night in cover and 100 yards + shots from a poor position does mean you will make some weak hits , my cartridges will cut me some slack .

I have only ever shot 1 style of bullet that has always performed how I wanted it too on game and here comes the broken record... its a nosler partition.

I have had many examples of poor performance on deer/hogs with sierra prohunters and game kings, Hornady interlocks, Winchester power points, rem corelocks, barnes tsx, and Hornady GMX. Very few of the animals have not been recovered so many of them shot placement and bullet performance were both looked at.

Partition is the best of both worlds for me, the front half is as soft as any other cup and core bullet out there and the back 1/2 is as tuff as any other mono metal out there. You pay for them, but like many have said before the bullet is the lowest cost part of your hunt. You probably spend more in gas driving to the place than the bullet. If you reload its really not that big a deal.

If we want to analyze the shot a little more, there's a few things I've noticed. Now this is arm chair quarterbacking the heck out of the shot, but it's a couple things I noticed.

The angle of the pig is perfect for a good kill shot, even for a body shot. When I am bow hunting, I prefer a pig quartered away to slightly quartering away, just like this pig is positioned. On a quartering angle, I try to put my arrow in several inches behind the pocket of the shoulder so that I miss the bone and heavy dense meat of a pigs shoulder. The arrow will then go in behind the shoulder hitting some lung and driving towards the heart. Pigs will run off, but will generally leave a very good blood trail, often squirting blood out as they run. That's about as an ideal shot and shot angle as you can get for a shoulder shot. I avoid the shoulder due to lack of penetration and how hard it is to drive through it. The Grendel is enough of a cartridge you should be fine with ideal shot placement. But it still could be not enough if hitting a direct shoulder shot.

Cross hairs before and after the shot- The pig is moving to the left so you are most likely tracking the pig to the left while standing/sitting from a fixed position. This would angle your upper body more to the left, and get your natural point of aim (NPA) off. Meaning, your stance is aligned right while tracking the rifle to the left. You get on target, take the shot, and then the cross hairs jump back hard to the left. This tells me your natural point of aim (the direction your body was facing) was aligned to the right. As the shot breaks, the rifle will recoil naturally to the opposite side you are aligned to. This will also be enhanced if you are on shooting sticks or from an unsupported position. (Most hunters [censored] their body to the left of the rifle when shooting, and cause the rifle to jump to the left) What does this mean? When the rifle goes off, the actual impact of the bullet will be slightly left of your aiming point. This is due to the NPA of your set up. You can easily see this as the rifle goes off and track the cross hairs during recoil to the left. So, the actual impact of the bullet was slightly to the left of your aiming point.

What does all this mean? We know where the cross hairs were when the shot went off. It was right on the edge of the pocket of the shoulder. Knowing it's a 40 yard shot the bullet would impact slightly lower than where the cross hairs were. Knowing the NPA was aligned to the right and the cross hairs jumped left, the actual bullet impact was slightly to the left of the aiming point. So, the bullet hit slightly lower and slightly to the left of where the cross hairs were aimed. This means the bullet went right into the heavy part of the shoulder.

I, personally, do not take a shoulder shot on pigs. I've shot enough over the years to know what anchors them what causes them to run, and what drops them DRT. The behind the shoulder shot is a good kill shot, but pigs will often run some distance before going down. A shot into the shoulder is a marginal shot, IMO, with questionable results.

Again, this is arm chair quarter backing the heck out of it. These shots in the field happen very quickly. The interesting thing is being able to analyze it after the fact to see what happened and might have gone right or wrong.

I think the arm on your chair is broken.

If your getting heart and lung in 1 shot your either shooting a big broad head, a bullet creating a massive wound channel, or you are just barely hitting either of them. The lungs are high the heart is low.

With a well performing hunting bullet the shot placement in the video is TEXT BOOK.

Me too.

The bullet is LONG GONE from the barrel before any position you took behind it (and recoil) had any affect. Your hold looked good and was not wavering upon trigger break.

Shot placement was not at fault here. Bullet performance (for whatever reason) was.

The hog also was not 'quartering' away...it simply was not exactly perpendicular to you. Not enough angle to be of any consequence. I've taken that same shot hundreds of times (as you have) and generally find the hog within 100-150 yds. at the most.

Bullet failed in some fashion.

If it was text book, why did the pig run off and not get recovered?

From that angle, it was 100% not text book. The shot placement was too far forward for that angle with that round and bullet. The impact of the bullet would have been lower and to the left of the cross hairs when the gun went off.

The TMK Bullets I have used opened up very well and caused massive expansion and wound channel, with minimal penetration. So a lighter match bullet with a very large polymer tip (that has a large hollow point behind the tip to initiate expansion) will have less penetration. Add in a shoulder shot on a pig and you get minimum penetration.

I have shot and killed enough pigs, even with much bigger rounds than a Grendel, have had issues taking down a pig when shoulder shot.

Again, we are arm chair QB’ing this thing to death. But anyone saying that is a text book shot placement from that angle with that round doesn’t understand proper shot placement. As they say, The proof is in the poodin’!!

Wow, I don't know where to start here. You think that not lining up correctly on the rifle has nothing to do with the shot placement? I guess whenever you take a shooting class and they discuss NPA and how shots get pulled off target, then NPA doesn't matter then. NPA is one of THE main factors for getting shots on target. Come out to the range with me sometime and I will prove to you your statement is 100% false.

DNS, sorry your great video thread turned into something else. I'm just trying to help. Sometimes people just don't know, what they don't know.

Chad ,

What method do you propose when assessing the performance of a bullet?

Read Diablodog’s post above, specifically the last line related to “weak hits” and a bullet that “cuts some slack” for poor placement.

The assessment of this shot aside, because we all can view the end result, where’d You place the shot?

My approach: I shoot for the shoulder and hope to hit bone so I can assess various aspects on the second to worst shot placement (worst being gut shot - I don’t do that on purpose).

I’m not apt to change my approach nor will I call into question your approach or DNS’ textbook shot because in the end I believe we all realize that when hunting hogs the first shot is ALWAYS going to be an attempt for the central nervous system and a sure kill “DRT” with limited tracking BUT on runners, anything goes and that could very well be shots like this post’s video illustrate or shoulder or foot, etc...

And testing to that end gives us an idea of what to expect on runners

My goal: is to find the cheapest bullet for follow up shots that shares a POI with my top loaded round.

Currently in 6.5 Grendel I’m doing 100 grain partitions for first shot (Red Chevy hit the high notes above on what I’ve seen thus far with the bullet) and then slinging 90 grain TNT or 120 grain Gold Dots at runners. I had to test each individually using shoulder shots to select the projectiles and obviously the cost per bullet was another major factor.

No need for me to go to the range with you. I am well aware of NPA (NAA) and what the purpose for it is....(primarily concerning prone, sitting, kneeling positions and rarely discussed for off-hand or standing positions). Particularly at 40 freaking yards (rock throwing distance).

Bullet failure, plain and simple. Stop over analyzing. Brian please go find that hog.

That was a lung shot with a bullet not suited to the job. The pig should have been found within 50 yards. In my opinion, the placement was fine. Probably not the placement I’d use these days, if given other options, but still it was a killing shot. Wrong bullet!

If all I hunted were pigs, I’d switch to redchevy’s favorite bullet. Actually I have switched to it in the 223, following my thought that the smaller the caliber the better the bullet needs to be.

It might be worth taking the rifle (with same bullet) and go take a good, rested, cold bore shot at 40 yards and see IF it impacts where we would expect it to (about an inch low and dead on for windage).

We are all assuming the original 'sight in' was good and that nothing happened to the rifle/scope from the time of sight in...until the shot was taken.

Hog certainly left as if it were hit significantly.

Sierra does not recommend Matchking bullets for hunting applications.

They are designed to provide tight groups on paper and steel, not to provide consistent penetration and expansion on game animals.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

The most I can get from Sierra's documentation is that they think they have something that will do better, but nothing about TMK being inconsistent.


https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/6-5-mm-264-caliber-107-gr-hpbt-matchking/

As long as Sierra is loading Match Kings in approved NATO ammo, Sierra will never promote those bullets for hunting. NATO regs require non-hunting style bullets be used in approved ammo.

Did you find blood? Or any signs of hitting the animal?


He seemed to run pretty normally...

That is an interesting take on the situation...and sort of goes back to my disinterest in following how the bullets are marketed. The marketing could be accurate in regard to application/performance, or the marketing could just be serving particular manufacturer objectives for sales.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2012/armaments/Parks.pdf


This is an interesting read imo...

^^^^^

I had that same concern at first viewing. The hog 'turned on his back-trail' not something you see too often when hard hit. More consistent with running back a direction they know is safe.

But when I look closer at how the hog ran...it is pushing hard with the rear legs but doesn't seem to be reaching/stretching out in the front, though the height of the grass obscures the view for the most part.

Of course, hogs can and do run any direction (including at you at times) when hit (or not) but there are 'tendencies'. Most hogs when hard hit will run straight forward a bit and then at some obtuse angle. If especially hard hit (running dead on their feet) will often run a quarter circle as they become disoriented and unable to maintain direction.

I'd wager the hog was hit and probably very close to point of aim, but something wonky happened with that bullet IMO. But who knows.

Brian will just have to pop another one and see how it turns out.

No blood noticed. Not as likely to find body with an entry side only wound unless it hits a major blood vessel near the surface.

Several years ago, the first mulefoot hog I shot was a 200 lb boar. It ran ~100 yards and it took about 30 minutes for the landowner and I to find it. It was shot with a .45-70 using 325 gr. Leverevolution ammo. The bullet did not exit. There was no blood trail. It was under a feeder when I shot it, and the area around the feeder was mowed for 30 yards or so. No blood under the feeder or in the mowed area in the direction the hog ran. When we found the hog, we could not find a wound on the hog. So, we left the hog with the wound side down and about an hour later, a small blood spot formed as the hog started to drain from the wound. Long story short, I am not surprised when there aren't blood trails when bullets don't exit. Hogs often seem to seal up after being wounded, due to shield and body fat. Sometimes you get a good entry side bleeder, but often you don't.